Early game Rush

[Seon]

You see, although I am a pretty decent late game player, though I do not even dare to even think about immortal difficulty, my early to mid game sucks at conquest and defense as I am more concerned with building infrastructures.

I figured this out when Tasunke declared war on me and wept through my Empire with bunch of horsemen

I wish to change that, now does anyone have *new* stretegy for rushing? detailing the technology path, the number of troops involved, nations, and all the other junks?

Any idea will be most appreciated

 

[EverNoob]

What exactly do you mean by "new"? Rushes either use Warriors, Axemen or Horsemen. But that's not new I guess...

 

[Seon]

I know, I meant some other radical rushes other than the usual clan or Doviello

 

[aswfreak12]

TBH, rushing early in this game is actually a bit overpowered against AI's. Just make your capital a good production city, spam warriors till your stack is supah, and then rush, hopefully before the AI gets archers or copper.

Remove as many civs as you can and take their caps, while adopting city states. Boom , instant REX.

 

[Seon]

I tried doing that and discovered that my next door neighbour was a tree-hugging elf with bunch Ancient forests around . Got killed by a treeant that spawned gg

 

[Sarisin]

Two other rushes in the game that seem to work are:

1. Building the Pact of Nilhorn and taking your Hill Giants out immediately. They are just too strong for most defenders and once they get some promotions they can be unstoppable.

2. Many moons ago I was able to take 1-2 Grigori Adventurer heroes (you can get 2 fairly early) on a rampage.

In almost every game, unless I am playing them, I target the elves or dwarves early to prevent them from beelining and founding FOL and ROK. The elves are very susceptible to attack as they send out their two Scouts leaving no defenders at home. In a slower speed game it is often easy to get your unit to their capital before they build their first unit. They must be fairly close to your civ, of course.

 

[EverNoob]

I know, I meant some other radical rushes other than the usual clan or Doviello

Most civs can do the Warrior/Axemen/Horsemen rush, except that some are better at certain rushes than others. I don't think it's specific to Clan or Doviello.

Among the more civ specific ones are Amelanchier-Archers.

 

[Seon]

Thanks, amelanchier archers seem fun. Will try that, I missed playing the elves anyways

 

[Emptiness]

discovered that my next door neighbour was a tree-hugging elf with bunch Ancient forests around

Rushing implies an early-game attack, before your opponent has many techs. If your opponent has Ancient Forests then you're past that point.

The best way to attack someone who has AFs is to go around them. If they are surrounded by AFs then move one (disposable) unit into the AF first, and if no Treant spawns then send in the rest. If a Treant does spawn then move the rest of the stack away until the Treant's time is up, and then come back and try again. There's no reason that an entire attack force should be wiped out by one Treant that only exists for 3 turns, unless the attack force was too small to begin with.

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does anyone have *new* stretegy for rushing? detailing the technology path, the number of troops involved

A rush strategy that involves a tech path probably isn't a rush strategy. I recommend bringing an attack force of 3 warriors for every warrior or scout defending in your target city. It's a good idea to use a unit as a spotter to see what kind of defense is in your target ahead of time, so you can be sure to bring enough attackers. Don't stay near the city, however, because the AI will build up defenses in the city in response to even one unit nearby. You want the AI to have the same number of units in the city when your attackers get there, otherwise you may find that you don't have enough units.

 

[loffenx]

Lately I've been using a sort of aggressive capitol placement, when possible. Make yourself close neighbour to aun unsuspecting target, build warriors untill you have 3x the defenders, and attack when the AI moves to settle its second city, or if your really lucky, after it attacks you.

 

[Kiwi Tyrant]

What civ and at what level, Seon?
Maybe, as it seems you are a builder-type player, your early 'power' score is not being maintained high enough to stop warmonger neighbour's from basically auto-DoWing you.

As the Illian's I pulled off a 'rush' on the Khazad recently, on Emperor level. My initial scout revealed a civ border close by, so I aggressively settled my capital. To my dismay the Khazad already had 3 Warrior's fortified in the city that was on a HILL!!! Only because I had the Remnants of Patria in my BFC did I proceed to cast Stasis and churn out a dozen Warrior's in the 20 turn's available. Then rushed 'em to find they had added a Scout to their defence. I think I came out of this with about 1 warrior standing; but with the sacrifice, I now had a second city and thus a potential springboard to dominance! If I did'nt have the Remnants of Patria, admittedly, it would have been a long, hard slog.....

 

[loffenx]

There's also a lot of tricks you can use to lure out the AIs defenders. Especially as the elves I've often left my capital with a sizeable force, hidden it in some woods out of view from the AIs capitol and then advanced when the AI troops are inbetween our cities. using the elves supreme speed in woods, I've then attackad enemy cities with maybe half their usual number of defenders.

 

[JonathanStrange]

I must be playing a different version of FFH2; although perhaps it's the level I'm playing at.

The Deity level AIs are not especially vulnerable to early rushes, rather they're far more likely to field 20 or 30 axemen before I can build four or five warriors. They seem to see into my nation and know what my garrisons are and where my armies are far better than they should.

The idea of at game's start of finding a nearby civ, then settling and rushing them? An old strategy, probably still potentially good, BUT in FFH2, my experience has been more often than not the enemy civ has established its capitol on a hill, across from a river. I remember recently seeing the Clan with 4 or 5 warg riders on (I can't recall the turn exactly) or before turn 20. Attempting to rush them would've just given the Clan all the captured Elf warrior gear that could want.

Probably at levels other than Deity/Immortal and other than pangaea maps where there are virtually no specific chokeholds (or rather too many), the standard civ rushes work for the humans well enough as they do on BTS.

(BTW, what's the theory, the idea, behind "raging barbarians hurt the AI worse than the humans"? Again, my experience is that the AI civs are just as deadly with or without raging barbs. I am regularly playing pangaea maps with raging barbs and frequently dealing with stacks of enemy axemen - sometimes from 2 or 3 civs - and the idea that these civs are weaker because of the barbarians doesn't make sense. Is the idea that civs are being knocked out by barbs? I can't recall that happening.

The most I would say about barbs is that they're a source of XPs for my troops, an annoyance (sometimes major) when they pillage, and Orthus, when he appears, is usually a good thing since I'll take his axe when he dies - and die he usually does.)

 

[Kiwi Tyrant]

I'm playing on lowly Emperor level while I learn and can say I've had raging barb's on, resulting in 2 or 3 AI civ's quickly disappearing. I've had 5 go down on a pangaea map once; instant rage quit! Sometimes they are stifled by losing early worker's. Sometime's the AI seem to all flourish (well, most anyway). Other time's I'd swear the barb's are all traveling through AI territory just to attack me; there seem's to be no rhyme or reason. It must be that damn Deity level you play on Jon!!!

Yeah, Orthus is a lovely bonus when he show's face. Usually just slams into a city, and if you've got at least 3 Warrior's fortified, an oversized free Fire Axe is yours!

@Loffenx: is'nt it strange how you can often empty a city of defender's, totally outside the view of the AI, only to have them pick up on it and try to march in!

 

[Jet]

To recap and add a few:
* warriors, axemen, or freaks, maybe with copper or aggressive
* horsemen, maybe with aggressive, horselord, or kuriotate
* doviello warriors or axemen with barbs, hero, world spell, maybe copper
* clan warriors, axemen, or riders, with barbs, world spell, maybe upgraded riders, maybe units from forts, maybe hero
* illian warriors or maybe axemen or horsemen with stasis, barbs, maybe letum frigis, maybe samhain
* adventurers with warriors or maybe horsemen or axemen
* moroi
* pyre zombies, maybe with copper
* tebryn adepts
* elf archers with gilden and maybe forests
* wood golems and cats
* warriors and trebs
* drowns (bulbing OO), maybe with water
* thanes (whoops, soldiers of kilmorph rather) (bulbing Earthmother), maybe with hills
* stooges with warriors
* anything with god king and/or apprenticeship

if you're alert you'll See What I Did There.

Spoiler :

list every early unit.

Spoiler :

but not recon.

 

[slowcar]

I must be playing a different version of FFH2; although perhaps it's the level I'm playing at.

The Deity level AIs are not especially vulnerable to early rushes, rather they're far more likely to field 20 or 30 axemen before I can build four or five warriors.

that is not even close. the bonus XP give immortal and deity AI a certain rush protection - but you can still do it. with every civ. aggressive civs have an advantage, sure, but without it you just need a couple of warriors more.

a good time to attack is when your neighbour finishes his first settler, if you happen to find a hill nearby you can view his growth and see when he builds it. on immortal you need around 10, on deity a couple more. the difficult thing is not to destroy your neighbour but to leave your economy and science alive.
with the money you conquer you can finance your scientists for a limited time, it is wise to use this to discover markets and city states.

ffh favors a very aggressive expansion and offers a multitude of benefactors for an early large empire.

 

[loffenx]

I'm playing on immortal, for the record. Slowcar raises many important factors, information beeing the most important one, ofcourse. Around the time the AI builds his second and sometimes third city, his troop-movement is somewhat erratic and you can often find a capitol with just two warriors for defence. This is often a small window of oppurtunity though, a few turns later the chance might be gone. And if the AI reinforces his new city(ies) bordering yours, you can always march past them and attack the often less well guarded cities.

 

[gogis]

that is not even close. the bonus XP give immortal and deity AI a certain rush protection - but you can still do it. with every civ. aggressive civs have an advantage, sure, but without it you just need a couple of warriors more.

a good time to attack is when your neighbour finishes his first settler, if you happen to find a hill nearby you can view his growth and see when he builds it. on immortal you need around 10, on deity a couple more. the difficult thing is not to destroy your neighbour but to leave your economy and science alive.
with the money you conquer you can finance your scientists for a limited time, it is wise to use this to discover markets and city states.

ffh favors a very aggressive expansion and offers a multitude of benefactors for an early large empire.

At deity AI have 2 settlers at start of the game, bunch of units that superior to yours, have bonus to army/cities maintenance while you have severe penalties.
To make it short - it's nigh impossible to do rushes on immortal and absolutely unreal on deity.
It's pretty common situation when you build strictly warriors and AI still have it more (2 cities) and whoop - once you field your force and go to grab them you already see that bronze warriors and couple of axemen, while you sit on 0% research due penalties.
Please show me the save with early rush on pangea/deity without Patria trick then i go to revise my strategy.

Infact, right now i am stuck with "2-3 cities maximum" early start, because REXing more means you going to be sooo way behind in terms of a power and just bound to be eliminated shortly after.

It's not just words, i really tried rushes with dedication and massive save/load tries but I did end up with cheesy warriors->catapults early strat because it's was only way to survive that bronze age warmongering fest.

 

[slowcar]

i rush in nearly every game until i don't have a close enemy and my area is well suited. the conquered gold propels your science and more cities mean more gold and research until a certain plateau is reached.
if your neighbour can connect copper AND upgrade his forces you are too slow. it is difficult to plunder because the AI switches to war mode when you declare and may field some more units when you are ready. stealing a worker is a good idea anyhow - sometimes.

on deity it is difficult to rush - but even more neccessary! sure, the AI has massive boni and you may be forced to delay until you are stronger - leaving the first opportunity out - and use stooges or axes etc. the longer you wait the more difficult it gets though.
deity is supposed to be a challenge and you are supposed to play risky and lose - sometimes.

i usually play immortal or emperor with rising difficulty etc because i dislike being rushed by 3 deity AIs with their 3-free-promotion units. i still rush close neighbours on deity.

0% research does not happen if you play it right. markets and city states are absolutely mandatory for an early empire, followed by councils, kilmorph temples.
don't hesitate to raze a city if it does not fit your concept - every city your enemy loses is an advantage for you.

if you don't like beating deity you don't have to.