[BTS] Completely puzzled by this map. I have tried multiple strategies and can't figure it out

[CGQ]

So I've been playing this immortal map for a while now and I'm just puzzled. I can't seem to break out no matter what I try and after rage-quitting several times, I realized I need some professional help here lol.

Spoiler The Game :

Currently in 1120 BC:

At start, I saw double-gold + rivers (poor food in cap but two other cities with good food) so the map basically screamed "HA RUSH." Problem is, once I tried a HA rush, both AI have copper and iron (and horses too, for that matter). I tried rushing Fred, and managed to take 2-3 of his cities but his cap is impossible to take, since it's on a hill and he stations spearmen, axes, swords and archers, even with 12 HA's. Went back, reloaded and tried attacking Sury instead, and took some cities but again, his spearmen are too much.

Am I doing something wrong? The earliest I can humanly get a decent army of HA's to attack is 600-800 BC in this map. Is that way too late?

The other strategy is construction for Cats+Sword+Axes with horses. Using all the cottages and maybe even building Mid's for rep, I figure I can get there quick and set up an amazing mid-late game for cuirs later. Problem is, as the above screenshot shows, in two turns, Sury will DOW on me. He will plot for one turn, then DOW the next one, like WTH? Anyone have an explanation to how and why that's possible? I can't even play peacefully. This game is really puzzling me and I could really use some good advice here.

I have both attached the current file and the 4000 BC one for anyone who wants to take a crack at it. Have fun! Any help would be highly appreciated!

 

[sampsa]

Played until T50 and I'm a bit baffled. Map appears to be one of the easiest ones I've ever seen. And it's not that you have only one line that works, I think you can choose from at least 5 reasonable strategies and pretty much cruise towards victory.

Reading your spoiler to see what could go wrong.

Spoiler :

I think HA is a very good play because of the gold and a very wussy neighbor (Fred). It should take nowhere near 600-800BC to attack, but well before 1000BC. I think I'll go with 2 cities, the 3rd city just slows your attack down.

Alternatively just develop your great land and build Mids. Early Sury declaration is unlucky, but it's pre-construction so had you prepared for it with some archers you could fend it off.

 

[CGQ]

Played until T50 and I'm a bit baffled. Map appears to be one of the easiest ones I've ever seen. And it's not that you have only one line that works, I think you can choose from at least 5 reasonable strategies and pretty much cruise towards victory.

Reading your spoiler to see what could go wrong.

Spoiler :

I think HA is a very good play because of the gold and a very wussy neighbor (Fred). It should take nowhere near 600-800BC to attack, but well before 1000BC. I think I'll go with 2 cities, the 3rd city just slows your attack down.

Alternatively just develop your great land and build Mids. Early Sury declaration is unlucky, but it's pre-construction so had you prepared for it with some archers you could fend it off.

Spoiler But how? :

I always thought three cities was the minimum for HA rush, I didn't know two could suffice. I'll go back and try that. As for Sury's declaration, how would I have prepared? I only had one turn and didn't have Archery. I guess I was overthinking the map.

 

[sampsa]

T50

Spoiler :

cow-farm-gold-gold just to work both of them asap and non-stop. It leads to late 2nd city, but I think you can live with that. Going for 2-city HAs, but building GW because it's dirt cheap and pretty useful.

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

I always thought three cities was the minimum for HA rush, I didn't know two could suffice. I'll go back and try that. As for Sury's declaration, how would I have prepared? I only had one turn and didn't have Archery. I guess I was overthinking the map.

Well, nobody told me you can do it with two cities, it's just that with double gold you get to HBR so fast there is no more time to waste on settling. You could've gotten archery earlier, rationale being that getting declared on early is the only way to lose that position.

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

Declare T68, cease fire T72. Got two workers and a very good city, which allows me to reach his capital in 1T. I think 5HA, chariot and the woodsman warrior is enough to take his capital soon. I would've captured his capital already had I just built several chariots instead of GW, but not a big deal. Don't know if alphabet was the right call, probably can't get anything good in a peace deal anyway.

 

[CGQ]

T50

Spoiler :

cow-farm-gold-gold just to work both of them asap and non-stop. It leads to late 2nd city, but I think you can live with that. Going for 2-city HAs, but building GW because it's dirt cheap and pretty useful.

View attachment 674198

How did you build that road from the horses in the pic? I'm trying to recreate your moves and I ended up the same (2T till HB) except Khmer managed to steal the Great Wall somehow. My workers only had time to chop the forests you chopped, but how did you manage to get him south to work on the horse road to river?

Also HB riding and construction Rush are the first two strategies I know, but what are the other three strategies? I'm curious lol.

 

[sampsa]

2nd worker from capital T46, then just move south to road and improve it. Failgold from GW isn't a disaster at all.

Also HB riding and construction Rush are the first two strategies I know, but what are the other three strategies? I'm curious lol.

I think you can go for GW-strategy (pretty sure you won't miss it if just chop asap in cap once 2nd city settled) aiming to steal techs, Mids-based peaceful strategy, breakout at cuirs or later and so on. I think everything can be pulled off with such a strong start.

You were right on something

Spoiler :

Fred's capital is very annoying to take as it's on a hill and copper is behind it. I re-declared but can't take it, so just need to cause some havoc, maybe even raze a city, get something in peace deal and return 10T later. It's great that the AIs are of different peaceweight so there is zero penalty in re-declaring over and over again. In HA rushes you need to reconsider things often, sometimes even every turn and be very versatile and opportunistic. Maybe I can lure his troops out somehow.

 

[antimony]

@sampsa

A bit off-topic, but your last comment in spoiler made me think of how, despite trying both similar numbers of times, I still do much better with siege-based armies than 2-movers (even Cuirs) unless I'm far ahead of the AI (and it's never the case on deity obviously). And I think it's because a stack of mounted units can either steamroll or be really bogged down based on terrain, units that hard-counter them, etc. Vs. with siege it's slower but it can usually take a tough spot by attrition with most units staying healthy after the first few losses. Does that make sense?

 

[CGQ]

2nd worker from capital T46, then just move south to road and improve it. Failgold from GW isn't a disaster at all.

I think you can go for GW-strategy (pretty sure you won't miss it if just chop asap in cap once 2nd city settled) aiming to steal techs, Mids-based peaceful strategy, breakout at cuirs or later and so on. I think everything can be pulled off with such a strong start.

You were right on something

Spoiler :

Fred's capital is very annoying to take as it's on a hill and copper is behind it. I re-declared but can't take it, so just need to cause some havoc, maybe even raze a city, get something in peace deal and return 10T later. It's great that the AIs are of different peaceweight so there is zero penalty in re-declaring over and over again. In HA rushes you need to reconsider things often, sometimes even every turn and be very versatile and opportunistic. Maybe I can lure his troops out somehow.

Ok I'm puzzled now, I keep getting my 2nd worker out earlier. I even got a barracks built too lol. What was the build order? Also tech? I went AH>Mansory>Mining>BW>HB

 

[sampsa]

Do you grow to size 4 to work both golds?

 

[antimony]

Regarding this map.

Spoiler :

I did try it before looking at the spoilers but made a few mistakes. I settled on one of the two golds and worked the gold across the desert at size 4, probably not a gain vs. SIP in the long term. Also was going for the long economic game with all those rivers before realizing how fast I was getting boxed in by the AI (should have known meeting them both before T5!) and then switched to the construction path.

At the time of your screenshot (1120 BC) I am 3 turns off construction, so I think construction is achievable by that time if it's set as the goal at first, which helps with defense as well as offense. Unfortunately I would need to roll back to an early turn since despite good research I really don't have the infrastructure for wars (barracks were a bit late, not enough pre-chops, and especially the roads are not set up for quick movement of troops, I was mostly connecting cities with rivers...)

 

[CGQ]

Do you grow to size 4 to work both golds?

Yes. Do I build worker at size 4?

 

[CGQ]

Do you grow to size 4 to work both golds?

Spoiler T36 :

 

[CGQ]

Regarding this map.

Spoiler :

I did try it before looking at the spoilers but made a few mistakes. I settled on one of the two golds and worked the gold across the desert at size 4, probably not a gain vs. SIP in the long term. Also was going for the long economic game with all those rivers before realizing how fast I was getting boxed in by the AI (should have known meeting them both before T5!) and then switched to the construction path.

At the time of your screenshot (1120 BC) I am 3 turns off construction, so I think construction is achievable by that time if it's set as the goal at first, which helps with defense as well as offense. Unfortunately I would need to roll back to an early turn since despite good research I really don't have the infrastructure for wars (barracks were a bit late, not enough pre-chops, and especially the roads are not set up for quick movement of troops, I was mostly connecting cities with rivers...)

Spoiler Spoiler :

Yup, despite being a creative leader, Khmer is not a fun neighbor to have, his creative borders will eat you right up lol.

 

[antimony]

Also micro question

Spoiler :

Do you farm FP or pasture cows first? Farm is super slow to build but growth clearly seems like the limiting factor here.

@CGQ

Spoiler :

True for Khmer, he's also quite aggressive at forward-settling on your borders at least in this game, something I expect more of Joao or other IMP leaders.

 

[sampsa]

Yes. Do I build worker at size 4?

No, I start settler at size 4, then worker. I don't know which one is better, but worker-worker delays 2nd city even further and it's very late already.

Also micro question

Spoiler :

Do you farm FP or pasture cows first? Farm is super slow to build but growth clearly seems like the limiting factor here.

Spoiler :

I go pasture first and do end up with (too) many warriors. Lost two to barbs I think.

 

[CGQ]

Also micro question

Spoiler :

Do you farm FP or pasture cows first? Farm is super slow to build but growth clearly seems like the limiting factor here.

Spoiler Farms :

Work FP while building pasture for cow, then move on to 7-turn farm while working cow + FP, then work spice while building gold mine and switch to gold once gold mine is built and work on spice while city grows to 4 before double gold. That's how I did it, based on what Sampsa suggested.

 

[CGQ]

No, I start settler at size 4, then worker. I don't know which one is better, but worker-worker delays 2nd city even further and it's very late already.

Spoiler :

I go pasture first and do end up with (too) many warriors. Lost two to barbs I think.

Do I whip the size 4 cap or should I just slow-build + Chop? Also after HB I went Hunting>Archery. Is Pottery>Writing>ALPHA good after?

 

[sampsa]

Do I whip the size 4 cap or should I just slow-build + Chop?

I didn't consider whipping those tiles without a granary. I never switched to slavery even.

Is Pottery>Writing>ALPHA good after?

I went writing-alpha. Not sure if it's the best, there are many things you could go for.