early game trouble

[Enigma256]

so far i played as Warlord in Warlords ( ) and usually obliterated the AI, having twice the score than the next best opponent and crushing them with my tanks in modern era with an "early" war against my neighbors with maces and trebuchet.

i'm not much of a warmonger, and no rusher by any means, maces is usually the earliest i go to war.


now i am trying noble
staying ahead of the AI is much more difficult, they usually outtech me, so my typical war strategy isn't quite as effective

now to my question: i think most of my problems lie in the early game, once i am up and running with a few production and commerce cities i am set, but i think this takes too long or that i could do better.

if i have a spiritual civ i usually go for two early religions (Hinduism and Judaism) to finance my empire, if i am financial i forego the early religions and try a CoL slingshot with the oracle for Confuzianism.
i find that extremly difficult to do at Noble, cause the AI always seems to get the Oracle before me, espescially since i have to get The Great Wall to get rid of those barbarians.

i tried to get the oracle with a GE by first build the Great Wall and the Pyramids while i get the prereq for CoL, but without a Phi leader that also doesn't work

also what to build in my first city?
worker? or wait for growth?


i feel like i can improve, but i don't know how yet

 

[Cam_H]

Perhaps upload a game at something like 600BC for others to look at?

It seems that you are very Wonder-oriented, and maybe that's holding you back from a more natural development of your empire and distracting you from something like an Axeman-rush that can handicap a rival and give you necessary growth.

Are you using Slavery too little or too much? Forest chops?

Building a Worker 'out of the gate' is not an uncommon approach, but it's important that you have the right technologies on hand to make some use of the Worker (e.g. Agriculture, Pottery, Mining). That Worker can be used to chop a forest to hurry the production of your Settler once Bronze Working is in.

 

[cabert]

Try a 0 wonder game.
You'll be happy to see how free you are!
You can also try in the same game to found 0 religion.
What to research and what to build?
well, let me think...
what do you think of axes/spears/catapults/maces...?

 

[volfan37132]

Keep experminenting. The learning curve for Civilization is steep, but it is
well worth it. Find a strategy that works for you.

I'm not a Great Wall builder. I normally use 3 or 4 warrior fog busters and
chariots, axemen or archers in my cities and most games I never
get even one tile pillaged by barbarians.

 

[Enigma256]

how can i survive the barbs without the great wall?
how can i finance my wars without founding a religion?

 

[CivDude86]

Assuming you aren't playing with raging barbs then axes and chariots can handle barbs pretty easily. Early wars you'll have to stick to pillaging and razing.

 

[malekithe]

Early wars you'll have to stick to pillaging and razing.

I've never found this sort of advice to be particularly helpful. The entire point of early war is to capture territory and grow your power. It does you no good to throw troops at an opponent if you aren't going to gain something in return. Learning how to build a robust economy that can handle large early wars of conquest is the more useful practice than simply learning to refrain from said conquest.

 

[Enigma256]

alright, now i followed some advice here, forgot about religion, turned off barbarians so i don't feel the need to build the great wall and moved along.

but, i was on a godless continent
all three early religions were found on the other continent, and i ended up founding Confuzianism that spread like a plague.
i also chop rushed the Oracle, so far my only wonder.

it seems like i was progressing faster in tech, but still not nearly fast enough, maybe too few workers for the cottage spam, now i am trying my first war with swords and cats, hopefully conquering most of the continent, with my shrine city up and running i should be able to afford it.

still, i miss universal suffrage as i don't have the pyramids, but that's just how it goes

 

[Cam_H]

still, i miss universal suffrage as i don't have the pyramids, but that's just how it goes

Just for your future games, Universal Suffrage is rarely the best option in the Ancient and Classical Eras. Police State does nothing for your scientific development, but if you're planning or in a war, it can be a bonus. Representation and Hereditary Rule each have their benefits, but many players opt for Representation at the civic of choice if they get The Pyramids in the early-game.

It sounds as though you are doing well. Don't forget to turn Barbarians back on in your next game.

 

[Enigma256]

i know, but i have a spiritual leader (Mansa Musa) and if i have to build something in those cottage cities it really helps

otherwise i am running mostly hereditary rule or representation in early game, depending on my military strength and the need for science


and if i turn barbs back on, i just have to get the wall again
and that's three wonders i have to choprush then

 

[malekithe]

if i have to build something in those cottage cities it really helps

One word... Slavery.

 

[Enigma256]

yes, but then i loose on the economy side, cause all those cottages are unworked.
i whip quite alot if there aren't much hammers, but still, after about 5-6 whips the unhappiness really starts to kick in.


i think next game i'll try the Inca again.
Industrious to please my wonderholism ( ), financial and a UB that mimickes Creative.

too bad i can't really use their UU as it is much too early for me.

 

[Rast]

If you want to be successful on higher difficulties you can't count on getting any wonders and founding an early religion with a civ that doesn't start with mysticism post-noble is almost impossible.

If you're getting out-teched on Noble you're doing something very wrong - I can stay tech leader in OCC games on Noble. Are you building cottages early? Pottery should be like the 2nd tech you go for (after BW or Archery, depending on how much you like to gamble early on). Are you focusing too much on production in the early game? Are you not chopping out a fast settler to get a 2nd city up quickly? If you have early access to gold are you mining and working it? Are you not getting Alphabet early and then trading techs to backfill what you miss?

As others have said, don't focus on wonders. If you want great people run specialists. Your cities' time and production is far too valuable in the ancient and classical eras to spend 30-100 turns (depending on game speed) building a wonder on Noble. Once you master Noble I would suggest attempting exactly three early wonders IF you think you can get them AND the reward is worth it (Pyramids, Colossus, Great Library - all three are godly if used properly and the AI has trouble building them (except Pyramids)).

Anyway, best of luck to you - everyone struggles a bit on Noble (and a lot on Prince and up!). Just try different things and you'll be OK.

 

[Enigma256]

does the effect of the colossus affect all cities?
i never built it, didn't seem worthwhile to me.

i now play as the incas, so that i have an excuse to build me some wonders (gotta use that industrious )
so far i get them easily (except The Oracle, cause i avoid the early religions and wait to long for a CoL slingshot), i build only The Great Wall and The Pyramids in the capitol and then use the GE for any other wonders i should need.
works pretty good, still, i neglect my military and to some degree my expansion.

 

[UncleJJ]

does the effect of the colossus affect all cities?
i never built it, didn't seem worthwhile to me.

i now play as the incas, so that i have an excuse to build me some wonders (gotta use that industrious )
so far i get them easily (except The Oracle, cause i avoid the early religions and wait to long for a CoL slingshot), i build only The Great Wall and The Pyramids in the capitol and then use the GE for any other wonders i should need.
works pretty good, still, i neglect my military and to some degree my expansion.

Colossus does affect all cities in your empire... a very worthwhile wonder if you have plenty of coastal and lake tiles.

Wonders are fun but often not really worth sacrificing an extra city... as long as the city is productive and costs are under control.

 

[jwk9]

Hi, everyone. This is a helpful thread, as is the one on the problems of the mid-game.

I recently had a game where I tried the early axe-man rush on my neighbors, the Indians who were led by Asoka. I managed to take 3 of his cities - I razed 2 and kept 1. By the end of the rush, he had 2 cities left, and I thought I didn't have to worry about him. Next thing I know, I see that he builds a few settlers, sets up a couple of cities, and proceeds to rush me! As a result, I ended up having to fight a war for most of the early game (Noble level), and my tech research slowed considerably.

How can I ensure that when I go after somebody and hobble them, that they stay down? It was annoying, and I ended up losing the game once other Civs came ashore. Should I have taken over all of Asoka's cities?

Thanks for the help, everyone.

 

[Bierp]

and if i turn barbs back on, i just have to get the wall again

I don't really see this as true. (at least not on regular barbies...perhaps on raging.) Generally the barbarian threat is not hard to mitigate and gives some nice early promotions to your units. If you're still seeing too many, place some cheap units (warriors, scouts) on some nearby hilltops to clear out some fog.

IMO the true upside of the GW is not the barbarian resistance, but the GG points earned if you win combat encounters within your own cultural borders. (this is especially nice with leaders that earn double GG points from the...charismatic?...trait.)

B

 

[Enigma256]

i kinda see your point.

so instead of building the GW, i should spend the hammers on units against the barbs, in early game mostly chariots, as the biggest thread at that time are axemen (and some Archers)
the chariot bonus against axemen is only applied when attacking, correct?


now some other things:
build queue and research

i usually start out with 2 workers, a warrior and a settler, hopefully i have bronzeworking at that time to rush the settler.
depending on what resources i have in the fat cross i research the technology for the worker to get me that resource

then i nail it for BW to see if i have copper so i know where to build my next city. if i dont have copper, i try again with iron.
now, that usually leaves my city only defended by a warrior instead of an archer.

when should i get Archery? hunting is useful for the scouts too, so it's a double benefit.

and what comes after ironworking?
monotheism if a religion has spread to me for the prodution bonus?
Alphabet for tech trading?
Code of Law?

i think next game i'm gonna try Hannibal, Cha/Fin seems overpowered to me

 

[BlackJAC]

Hi, everyone. This is a helpful thread, as is the one on the problems of the mid-game.

I recently had a game where I tried the early axe-man rush on my neighbors, the Indians who were led by Asoka. I managed to take 3 of his cities - I razed 2 and kept 1. By the end of the rush, he had 2 cities left, and I thought I didn't have to worry about him. Next thing I know, I see that he builds a few settlers, sets up a couple of cities, and proceeds to rush me! As a result, I ended up having to fight a war for most of the early game (Noble level), and my tech research slowed considerably.

How can I ensure that when I go after somebody and hobble them, that they stay down? It was annoying, and I ended up losing the game once other Civs came ashore. Should I have taken over all of Asoka's cities?

Thanks for the help, everyone.

The best thing to do is either a) make sure you raze or keep his best cities as only taking his border cities won't have a long lasting effect (You need to destroy or grab his core cities) or b) better yet, finish him off completely.

It's better to build a few more axes than to get caught on the back foot later. If you're going to raze his cities and have no need to build on that particular plot anytime soon, pillage the improvements where the cites where so they don't have the luxury of having ready made improvements. leaving the improvement's will only mean he'll get back up to size a lot sooner, thus threatening you when you least expect it.

I've yet to see a civ come back from having it's core destroyed.

 

[jwk9]

Thanks, BlackJac. I'll have to be more selective about which cities to go after. Usually, I try to obliterate the other Civ and take the whole thing over only to have to quit due to the negative effects on my economy and research before finishing the job. Sounds like I should start with the tough ones first...

Would you recommend razing cities or taking over a big city that's deep in the other Civ's territory?