Early wars without UU

I've played countless deity starts now and, although I used to focus on archers early, it's just not as effective now as it used to be. The AI gets walls up quicker and builds their own archers earlier, and the cost of upgrading slingers is increased. Last time I went warriors I conquered Nubia's capital by probably turn 25, conquered their second city by about turn 30. Upgraded all of my warriors to Swordsmen and was pretty much unstoppable at that point. I love archers but having 4 or 5 Swordsmen before the enemy even has walls in most cities allows you to really go to town.

Every time I have used this strategy so far, I have been able to conquer my neighbors AND get 2 or 3 of the early great scientists, which is a huge boost to science. It's rare that I see the AI building campuses early so conquering their cities is not likely to get you great scientist points. You have to build campuses to get them early.
 
The only early GS that's worth anything, imo, is Hypatia, and she still requires that you build libraries which you may not want to do in the ancient era. All the others give eurekas which can be achieved through other means.
 
It's true you can get the Eurekas through other means, but if you don't have to do those other means (or if you get the Eurekas quicker than you normally would) it can increase your capability of snowballing.
 
I've played countless deity starts now and, although I used to focus on archers early, it's just not as effective now as it used to be. The AI gets walls up quicker and builds their own archers earlier, and the cost of upgrading slingers is increased. Last time I went warriors I conquered Nubia's capital by probably turn 25, conquered their second city by about turn 30. Upgraded all of my warriors to Swordsmen and was pretty much unstoppable at that point. I love archers but having 4 or 5 Swordsmen before the enemy even has walls in most cities allows you to really go to town.

Every time I have used this strategy so far, I have been able to conquer my neighbors AND get 2 or 3 of the early great scientists, which is a huge boost to science. It's rare that I see the AI building campuses early so conquering their cities is not likely to get you great scientist points. You have to build campuses to get them early.

You somehow are having a different experience then everybody else here then.
 
I certainly appreciate the input, and I don't doubt the power of the archer rush. That's how I've started 90% of my Civ VI games and it's getting boring. I'm not interested in what's optimal here, I'm looking for viable alternatives to the good old slingers-->archers opening. Chibisuke's idea still involves an early offensive, although it is reliant on iron. If I can get it to work for me it would be a breath of fresh air for my play-book. On the subject of campuses, I have a feeling I'm getting them up too slowly, and I think my game would improve if I made it a priority to have 2-3 up as soon as I have the expos and infrastructure to make it feasible; that's something I'm working on regardless of exactly how I open the game. Around what turn do you usually start building them?
 
Yea if you want the swordsmen it does rely on finding iron. I usually have been able to find some within 3 tiles of at least one of my cities or the cities i conquered from the AI, so I just purchase whatever remaining tile to get the iron. Last few times I did it I just rushed iron working and seriously, you can go nutz if you get those swordsmen up really early. Conquering cities in 1 turn allows you to sweep the map so much faster.

Also, as far as when I get the first campus up, probably mid 30s.
 
Ok I haven't tried inserting screenshots before so hopefully this works :)

But anyway, I figured I would show what happened in a game I just started today with Kongo using the warrior only strategy.

Here is my starting position.


After starting, I explored a little to the west, found no AI there, and then moved east with my initial warrior. Before he got too far east, I had a second warrior and both of them proceeded past the science city state shown in the below screenshot. I found Alexander and started preparing for an attack. My two warriors waited there until the 3rd one came close. Then once they were all in range, I declared war on Alex and took the city you see them currently around/at. He had a builder there that I also stole, and as you can see there was iron there as well. (Though you don't need iron to build Kongo's swordsmen, it does help with boosting the research for them a LOT). I had been simply rushing iron working the whole time, and once I took the city pictured and used the builder to mine the iron mine, I only had 2 turns left before I got iron working. Also, after I had finished my 3rd warrior I built a settler and settled the city to the far west there. This was all at turn 34.


Shortly after this, I finished iron working and upgraded 2 of my warriors to swordsmen (while waiting for enough cash for the 3rd). By then, Alex had settled another city slightly to the southwest of where my 3 warriors were. At this point, I thought it was unlikely that I could finish off his capital before he might be able to get some archers and/or walls going, so instead I went and took that city he settled slightly to the southwest. After that, I upgraded my 3rd warrior to a Kongo swordsman and forced Alex into a peace deal that gave me a ton of gold. Then I moved all 3 of the swordsmen FAR down to the southwest where Japan was starting to encroach on my territory. In the meantime, I started building walls and chariots in the cities I just captured from Alex (which of course came in very handy later when I upgraded the chariots to knights when Alex tried to attack me later to get his cities back, and of course I completely crushed him.)

My 3 Kongo swordsmen traveled way way way down southwest and easily took the city state that Japan had taken over (you can see it is Lisbon in the below picture, on the far left side). It had like 20 defense still and was blown up immediately by 3 swordsmen. In the meantime, I was pumping out tons of settlers from my capital and settling everything within my region that was good. Eventually, I extracted a peace deal from Japan where he gave me all his gold. At this point, there were some barbarians slightly distracting me so I couldn't march on Japan's home region fast enough to do more damage to him. However, by then my empire was already pretty huge. Here is what it looks like at turn 93.


And here is the menu screen so you can see I was playing on Deity. Also, this is on HUGE map.



As you can see, until I built those chariots at the cities I took from Alex, I didn't build any military units other than 3 warriors!! And I had to march them 15 spaces to Alex's territory, and then probably at least 22 or 23 spaces back in the other direction to take that city state from Japan, and I still was able to beat both of them up very bad and set up a nice large empire for myself by turn 93.
 
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I certainly appreciate the input, and I don't doubt the power of the archer rush. That's how I've started 90% of my Civ VI games and it's getting boring. I'm not interested in what's optimal here, I'm looking for viable alternatives to the good old slingers-->archers opening. Chibisuke's idea still involves an early offensive, although it is reliant on iron. If I can get it to work for me it would be a breath of fresh air for my play-book. On the subject of campuses, I have a feeling I'm getting them up too slowly, and I think my game would improve if I made it a priority to have 2-3 up as soon as I have the expos and infrastructure to make it feasible; that's something I'm working on regardless of exactly how I open the game. Around what turn do you usually start building them?

In the control games I did I would beeline writing and build a campus, using one chop to get it up. I dont remember when it actually came up, but with I think a +2 bonus I had something like 10 science on t50 as opposed to 8 or 9 just rushing a second city. The point was just to do an expierament to show that getting more citys is a better use of production then building an early campus. Most science in a game will come from population anyway because of the time it takes to build a campus into buildings. I sometimes will incidentaly get two or three up in a game, but I never "try" to build them as if its optimal, sometimes after hubs you just have dead time to build one or two. Considering the game ends about t180-220 most of the time, Im not sure its worth prioritizing them at all.
 
Ok I haven't tried inserting screenshots before so hopefully this works :)

But anyway, I figured I would show what happened in a game I just started today with Kongo using the warrior only strategy.

Here is my starting position.


After starting, I explored a little to the west, found no AI there, and then moved east with my initial warrior. Before he got too far east, I had a second warrior and both of them proceeded past the science city state shown in the below screenshot. I found Alexander and started preparing for an attack. My two warriors waited there until the 3rd one came close. Then once they were all in range, I declared war on Alex and took the city you see them currently around/at. He had a builder there that I also stole, and as you can see there was iron there as well. (Though you don't need iron to build Kongo's swordsmen, it does help with boosting the research for them a LOT). I had been simply rushing iron working the whole time, and once I took the city pictured and used the builder to mine the iron mine, I only had 2 turns left before I got iron working. Also, after I had finished my 3rd warrior I built a settler and settled the city to the far west there. This was all at turn 34.


Shortly after this, I finished iron working and upgraded 2 of my warriors to swordsmen (while waiting for enough cash for the 3rd). By then, Alex had settled another city slightly to the southwest of where my 3 warriors were. At this point, I thought it was unlikely that I could finish off his capital before he might be able to get some archers and/or walls going, so instead I went and took that city he settled slightly to the southwest. After that, I upgraded my 3rd warrior to a Kongo swordsman and forced Alex into a peace deal that gave me a ton of gold. Then I moved all 3 of the swordsmen FAR down to the southwest where Japan was starting to encroach on my territory. In the meantime, I started building walls and chariots in the cities I just captured from Alex (which of course came in very handy later when I upgraded the chariots to knights when Alex tried to attack me later to get his cities back, and of course I completely crushed him.)

My 3 Kongo swordsmen traveled way way way down southwest and easily took the city state that Japan had taken over (you can see it is Lisbon in the below picture, on the far left side). It had like 20 defense still and was blown up immediately by 3 swordsmen. In the meantime, I was pumping out tons of settlers from my capital and settling everything within my region that was good. Eventually, I extracted a peace deal from Japan where he gave me all his gold. At this point, there were some barbarians slightly distracting me so I couldn't march on Japan's home region fast enough to do more damage to him. However, by then my empire was already pretty huge. Here is what it looks like at turn 93.


And here is the menu screen so you can see I was playing on Deity. Also, this is on HUGE map.



As you can see, until I built those chariots at the cities I took from Alex, I didn't build any military units other than 3 warriors!! And I had to march them 15 spaces to Alex's territory, and then probably at least 22 or 23 spaces back in the other direction to take that city state from Japan, and I still was able to beat both of them up very bad and set up a nice large empire for myself by turn 93.
These screenshot links don't seem to work for me... is it incompetance on my part?
 
It's probably my fault lol. But try looking now, I think maybe I had to set the permissions on my image gallery to "everyone" can view. I just tried looking at it while logged out and it worked.
 
Early warriors can work but on deity you can be very surprised by an agressive AI against you and barbs at the same time. Marching your full force 15 moves away is asking to be placed into a gentle and everlasting sleep. Early warriors are great for defence.

There is no perfect answer, situations dictate actions, it's about being flexible.

Personally around 5-6 archers with agog and a couple of warriors and take what you can get while you beeline knights to take over. When the knights start to falter bombards, muskets and crossbows should be able to take over... more importantly you have 2 armies not 1. Footslogger for the close grinding work and knights to bring those distant lands into your hands. Find a weak city/CS near the target and buy a ram there.
 
Yea it is always possible to run into aggressive AI and barbs, whether you have archers or warriors. This game has so much randomness, especially on Deity. I was playing a game earlier and an AI only had one warrior within range of my empire and declared war, even though there was no pissibility of them beating me. All they hoped to do was distract me for a little while. That's one of the aspects of the AI that is annoying to me. Some of them just try to make you lose rather than win for themself. No matter what strategy you use the AI can do unpredictable things and mess up your game. I'm just letting everyone know you don't have to just go with archers if you want to change things up a bit.
 
The problem with warriors is that they are very weak against horsemen. The AI has a bad tendency to not clear barbarian outposts, so if the AI you conquered had a barbarian outpost with horses next to it, you'll almost definitely lose a couple of warriors against barbs (if you don't have archer support).
 
True, but on deity, if there is a barb camp spawning horsemen and horse archers as a defensive force for an AI city, you aren't taking that city anyway even with archers. All your units will be swamped and at a minimum, you will be distracted long enough for the AI to get walls up or get more units ready to fight you off. At worst, the barbs will just kill your invading army.
 
I tried 5 barb storms on deity
1 worked
1 map the was no civ I could find, the issue with a civ 15 tiles away is you often do not know it's there
1 attack force got thwarted by barbs
2 attack forces could not take the cities because they had too many barbs nearby, in one of them they had god of the forge .....

Barb storms are just risky
 
I tried 5 barb storms on deity
1 worked
1 map the was no civ I could find, the issue with a civ 15 tiles away is you often do not know it's there
1 attack force got thwarted by barbs
2 attack forces could not take the cities because they had too many barbs nearby, in one of them they had god of the forge .....

Barb storms are just risky

The first two where it didn't work would have also been a problem with archers. If there is no nearby AI or if there is a barb camp spawning units near the AI city you will still not succeed whether you have warriors or archers.

If it is a matter of the AI just having too many of their own warriors around this could still be an issue if you rush archers. It depends how many warriors they have in the area. I agree that having 3 or 4 archers makes it easier to kill enemy warriors, but then it becomes more of a timing issue. That is, it takes longer/more gold to get 3 or 4 archers on the field than 3 warriors. I'll link another game I was playing yesterday. I'm Germany and started again with 3 warriors. Moved west, found a religious city state. As soon as I got my pantheon I captured them with the 3 warriors. Then Persia was more to my west. Immediately after capturing the city state I took one of his cities with those same 3 warriors. I built some archers after that to help defend my capital since it was very far away, but I was able to capture 2 cities really fast. Probaby by turn 30. Then got peace deal with Persia for lots of gold which helped me big time with growth.

Since then I have grown to a large empire and managed to build BOTH Pyramids AND Petra in secondary cities. Not even in my capital. I built Petra in a city I formed like in the middle of desert lands just to maximize coverage. But because I got the city started so early I was able to start building Petra by like turn 63. Then, I got DoW by both Persia and Rome on opposite ends of my empire. Because of my swordsmen I was able to beat both of them off until I had knights. I'll show screenshot later.
 
The first two where it didn't work would have also been a problem with archers
Exactly, one strategy does not fit all games, The earlier you try something the less likely you know what is going to happen, you are spinning the dice more and sure it can turn out great... or you can just restart coz you got seriously beaten over or invested badly and now consider yourself too far behind for the game to be deemed fun.

That is, it takes longer/more gold to get 3 or 4 archers on the field than 3 warriors
Well that much gold that early is not really that possible, sure a little bit.
So I'll go scout for 6-8 turns then worker for 8 then each slinger takes 2 turns each to build and I have a nice eureka which is rather useful, a developed home base, some valuable scouting information and all in all not that many turns behind your warrior rush.

Its a strategy and will work sometimes but lets not say its better than another strategy, just different with different pro's and con's. Also it is known, nothing new... just players will use it when they find a CS next to them but not for a blind rush to hope the right situation plays out because well... from my view its risky
 
Sometimes neither approach works. I just played a game where I had Japan, Congo, Russia and Egypt around me. There was only enough room for one city between each and my capitol. I was doing the warrior rush and declared on Japan. As soon as I was attacking Japan, others declared on me. I was put out of my misery real quick. :cringe:
The other game was a while ago, but I was doing the archer rush. Four barb camps spawned 6 - 8 hexes away from my capitol, two were had horsed. I was the only civ nearby. Before I could get the slingers to archers, I was overwhelmed by barb attacks. :eek:
At least both games were short.
 
Yea those games where you start in the middle of a crowd are especially tough on deity. Need a good amount of luck to survive and do well.
 
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