Earlygame Scions

[Iceciro]

If it helps, what I'm reporting is what the game plays like on normal speed. (Which I always thought was how FFH/FF was balanced in regard to.)

 

[Valkrionn]

Same here. I always preferred Marathon for BTS, but FfH I play Normal.

 

[Arctic Circle]

In my quick games, I always tend to have three size four cities when my fellow player (the wife) have only one or two size 5-6. And I tend to keep the lead until a certain point in time when the food income and natura growth crushes my civs growth. She can have ten or a hundred times the population I have late game.

 

[Iceciro]

Exactly, AC.

I've actually dropped the Scions from my list of favored civs now - partly because the AI now takes advantage of your weak point midgame, and partly because, omg, Bannor Commanders.

 

[Tarquelne]

I've actually dropped the Scions from my list of favored civs now - partly because the AI now takes advantage of your weak point midgame

Can't have that. I'm tipping toward doing something for them midgame (or around the Spawn/Cathedral switch), given the feedback trickling in. (Though some weirdo questioned Drama as a needed tech. I mean, really!) In addition to a WS I'm thinking a giant mecha hamster unit. At Taxation, obviously. Though that's very provisional.

 

[Iceciro]

The scions really feel awesome in the early game. But then your spawns just slow to a trickle, and the AI likes to charge you while you're picking up the needed techs to get Reborn, putting you in a quagmire war even if you mow down legions of his troops on the defensive, because your small pop sizes and low production as midgame civs ramp up means the AI always thinks he's beating you and they want things like cities in exchange for peace.

Meanwhile the by-comparison-legendary Scion WW starts to kick in, and it's a very quick slippery slope to diving in the standings.

I just think the swap from Awakened being useful is too abrupt, then the time it takes to get reborn actually cranked out is frickin huge. To say nothing of what the other human players in a game are cranking up around this time.

 

[Tarquelne]

I just think the swap from Awakened being useful is too abrupt, then the time it takes to get reborn actually cranked out is frickin huge.

Hmm... that'd be an easy to adjustment. On the Awakened side, at least - just up the limit and/or decrease the "decay" rate.

To say nothing of what the other human players in a game are cranking up around this time.

"If it isn't blatantly OP it isn't a FFH civ." did get used in conversation here the other day.

 

[Tarquelne]

I've increased the Awakened spawn cap (land area/33 + 6 rather than land area/40 +6) and decreased the spawning decay rate (by 15%), but I've decided not to do the "ressurect dead hero" spell. It's a cool idea, but I think it'd boil down to not much more than a "What AI controlled Hero do I want?" spell. Plus the python looked like a headache.

Any other ideas? I'm thinking something that'd effectively give the Scions some sort of "surge" mid or late game. "Effectively," so either some boost to them or something that'd hurt everyone else.

Allow any city to build Reborn for X turns? (Maybe with a discount?)
- longer you wait the more, bigger cities.

A per/city chance to spawn Reborn for X turns? (Chance based mainly on Open Borders and gold reserve.)
- longer you wait the more cities and, presumably, more gold.

Ability to purchase Reborn for X turns?
- longer you wait the more gold you might have.

Couple any of those with a growth nerf for everyone else? (Too many people are emigrating to the Scions.) And a "Scion Sympathizers" building (increased maint, decreased culture, can be removed by Inquisition?) in every non-Scion city?

 

[Iceciro]

I'd like the Emperor and Korinna to have different spells - I think that would be cool.

Also, I like the idea of it being based not on open borders per say, but the chance being 10% per city per FOREIGN trade route... maybe just on the commerce from said trade routes, so that you can't OB with everyone, drop the spell, then close after it ends, because trade routes get more lucrative as time goes on. Also gives a reason to build and maintain all those really nice +foreign trade buildings.

 

[Valkrionn]

What *I* would like (And I just thought of it, or I would have tried it before... ) would be some kind of immigration effect. It's already represented pretty well in their pedia entry...

Say, all foreign cities have a (low) % chance to drop a point or two in pop, each point dropped spawns a Reborn in the Scion capital. To make it different from River of Blood, have culture effect the outcome... The higher the disparity between the Scion Capital's culture and the target city, the higher the chance it will take place. So essentially...

Unnamed World Spell

1. 5-10% chance for foreign cities to lose one pop, additional (first chance/4)% chance to lose an additional pop.
2. Each pop lost spawns an awakened in the Scion Capital.
3. Culture disparity between the Scion Capital and the foreign city can increase/decrease the chance.
   • 10% per culture tier, or Actual Culture Difference/x? Not sure which would be most balanced.

 

[Castar]

It's a good idea, but I get the feeling that some people will go ballistic when they find out that the leading idea to FINALLY make the Grigori a little more diverse is immediately copied to another Civ, and one of the most unique in the whole game, at that. Not me btw, I don't care for the Grigori and the Scions are AWESOME.

Still, it *does* make sense. And it's not exactly the same mechanic IIRC

 

[Tarquelne]

To make it different from River of Blood, have culture effect the outcome...

Yar - I should probably give up the requirement that it be so different from any other WS. A RoB type effect makes a lot of sense and you've outlined a good way to make it significantly different.

Though I.'s suggestion that K. and the R.E. have different spells is intriguing. It'd be more so if I had two good ideas.

 

[Valkrionn]

It's a good idea, but I get the feeling that some people will go ballistic when they find out that the leading idea to FINALLY make the Grigori a little more diverse is immediately copied to another Civ, and one of the most unique in the whole game, at that. Not me btw, I don't care for the Grigori and the Scions are AWESOME.

Still, it *does* make sense. And it's not exactly the same mechanic IIRC

Well, the Grigori would have that going the whole game... While for the Scions, it's a one shot thing to gain some pop.



As for two spells.... I think the one I outlined would fit the Emperor the best. Not sure what to do for Korinna, to be honest I never play her.

 

[Valkrionn]

Forgot to mention....

When I started writing, I hadn't even realized how close it was to River of Blood. The Culture thing was initially a way to make it more useful if you wait... Sure, early on you can get some pop, but if you wait the Scions natural culture growth will kick in and you'll get more pop. Hopefully, just when you need it, as you're gearing up for the Reborn shift.

 

[Castar]

Ok, I misread that somewhat. A world spell would be fine of course. Balance seems a problem though. Since you play the Scions, you will (probably) never aim to have a massive amount of cities. So your number of cities might not vary much between different map-sizes, at least not as much as other civs. Yet, on big maps, with lots of civs, you will get a lot more Awakened. While on smaller maps it might hardly be worth the effort of even pushing the button.

You could normalize the base percentage chance based on the number of civs still in the game of course, or even based on the number of cities not owned by you. This last option is probably the most balanced, but it will make it rather hard for players to understand how exactly it works. Best just to lie and have the pedia mention it as a fixed percentage

 

[ExMachina]

Personally, I think a world spell that tries to fix Scion population troubles would be a lame bandaid. If the Scions aren't getting enough population, their base mechanics (spawning rate, build cost, decay, etc.) should be adjusted until it works properly. I've already gone ahead and removed the decay/population limit entirely, it doesn't make sense to have it when the Scions have such population issues late game. We'll see how things work out.

I think the "recruit a dead hero" idea was the most interesting for a world spell. But since that seems to be nixed, some other ideas:
- Random units from other civs are converted to Scions (and teleported to the Scion capital?).
- Take over another civ's city (though I think Hyborem's WS already does this).
- Cause disorder in all non-Scion cities, with possibly other effects (chance of taking over city, chance of converting/spawning Scion units/Reborn?).
- Scion units randomly spawn outside cities and graveyards.

 

[Tarquelne]

Personally, I think a world spell that tries to fix Scion population troubles would be a lame bandaid.

There's certainly something to that, "bandaid" or not: You've got a civ with pop. troubles then give it a WS as an easy way to get pop..

Maybe something that attracts - steals - Great People specialists. But I think there'd be major balance problems with just gifting GP. I don't know if they could be nobbled so they could only settle as specialists. Or if it'd be very interesting.

Oh yeah... I like your other ideas, esp. the steal-city idea... which would have been used long ago if it wasn't already a WS. (Though, since I would have needed to copy the Infernal WS to make it, there's a serious chicken/egg problem.) Maybe multiple cities, but you don't get to choose and they tend to be small, border cities. Link it to culture and just make it, in effect, a super-duper culture bomb. (A little like yet another WS...)

 

[Iceciro]

Nah, messing with Specialists is a Sidar thing.
You want something very unique.

As a warmonger, I could go for something that causes every unit that dies within say 10 turns, a large chance to be reborn as a Scion Reborn.
But it wouldn't do very good for the peace game a lot of people seem to enjoy with Scions.

 

[Crazy_Ivan]

How about, a world spell that with Sorcery and Preisthood, grants all units currently under Scion control, a promotion that gives them a chance to be reborn in the Capitol when they die.

A further possibility would be to have a second chance for them to spawn as a Reborn after death, rather than their former unit.

This allows for a player to 'roll the dice' for a Military card, a Pop increase (presumably when one would need pop, which is to say, after military losses), or just some peace of mind (keeping their units on hand).

 

[Tarquelne]

This allows for a player to 'roll the dice' for a Military card, a Pop increase

Hmm... how about a WS that allows a bunch of embodied people to escape the Underworld and/or Hell? (I'd have to look at the Lore to see which would be easier - or possible - to justify.)

The effect is Awakened and military units - tilted strongly toward defense - appear together somewhere in the world outside Scion territory. Use them to conquer a chunk of territory, or (perhaps more realistically) get them to Scion territory for a pop boost. A lot would depend on the map. Maybe they'd just get snuffed. Either way you're likely to face some decisions and challenges. (Maybe just "Where are the boats?")

Minimum tech around the level of Sorcery, probably more. I'd want to make it such that the longer you wait the more units you get, though I'm not sure how to justify it. (Maybe base it on techs possessed?)

I'd probably give the spell to Themoch. Ideally he casts it, disappears for awhile, and re-appears later with the escapees. Or an invisible-to-non-Scions "beacon" unit could appear where the Spiral Gate will open in X turns. Give the player a chance to scramble some support.

Maybe make the spell highly responsive to techs possessed. Some make more Reborn likely, some more military units, some better military units, etc.

Civs without an Open Borders agreement or an existing war - I'd say the units appearing declares war.

(This is my favorite idea yet. Fingers crossed no one comes up with a reason shooting it down as quickly as all the others. )