[BTS] Earth 18 civs - How to Win (Monarch-Emperor) : 4th game - Japan (Immortal :eek: ) - many calculations, I would appreciate replays from the pros

[jorissimo]

Persia asked for open borders. I said "No"

Always open borders with all AIs. It builds diplomatic relations which contribute to avoiding DOWs. Trade routes are also very important.

I built a cottage on plains to have one more hammer and get commerce one turn earlier.

This is IMHO not necessary, if you'd gone for that forested riverside grassland you'd have gained 20 hammers in one go and built a cottage that is self-sufficient in food.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Green mines aren't really important generally, and this case you get some hammers from the cow and the ivory. But hammers are not a key criteria for city placement. Food is king.

I didn't consider that, early benefit trumps late game advantage. I chose it because it brings both food resis into the first ring.

In this case holds:
When I improve the elephants, I get 221
When I improve the mine, I get 131:commerce
This equals out, but: The city can cover one hill more in my empire, which would be uncovered later.

 

[jorissimo]

The city can cover one hill more in my empire, which would be uncovered later.

Hills should largely be avoided until the late game, unless you have nothing else to work.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Always open borders with all AIs. It builds diplomatic relations which contribute to avoiding DOWs. Trade routes are also very important.

Thanks, that's interesting to know. So Persia is not that interested in war when I do open borders?

This is IMHO not necessary, if you'd gone for that forested riverside grassland you'd have gained 20 hammers in one go and built a cottage that is self-sufficient in food.

For me it was the best short-term decision. I don't need more food. Food is plenty in India, but I lack hammers and commerce. Later on I can substitute it or maybe let it until end. But for now it is important as contribution in this case.

 

[jorissimo]

For me it was the best short-term decision. I don't need more food. Food is plenty in India, but I lack hammers and commerce.

No matter how much food there already is, food remains king. You grow back faster after whipping. You can grow way into unhappiness btw, the angry pop is just stored production and will go away once you get Monarchy and/or Calendar.

 

[jorissimo]

As opposed to slowing growth until you have a higher happy cap, because once you have that cap you still have to grow to it. If you had grown already previously, you'll instantly get a bunch of productive pop once you get the happiness.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

No matter how much food there already is, food remains king. You grow back faster after whipping. You can grow way into unhappiness btw, the angry pop is just stored production and will go away once you get Monarchy and/or Calendar.

This holds definitely for later game-stages. You are right, when happy cap is higher, when there is Monarchy or when there are libraries to use the masses of food, which is produced.

Actually I have really no use of that food. It just produces unhappiness. When I whip, I still produce much more food than I need, and I cannot whip anything, which costs me enough pop to make whipping effective.

I think, this tile will be replaced or simply not used anymore later, but for now it is still necessary to slow down pop growth while getting a hammer and a decent amount of commerce. When I have free workers and have use for my food (e.g. libraries or caste), I can build better places.

No rule without exception. This case is the exception, I think.
Building a cottage on plains is in this rare case at early game a good idea, when it is riverside and max 1-2 per full-food-city.

 

[jorissimo]

This holds definitely for later game-stages. You are right, when happy cap is higher, when there is Monarchy or when there are libraries to use the masses of food, which is produced.

Actually I have really no use of that food. It just produces unhappiness. When I whip, I still produce much more food than I need, and I cannot whip anything, which costs me enough pop to make whipping effective.

I think, this tile will be replaced or simply not used anymore later, but for now it is still necessary to slow down pop growth while getting a hammer and a decent amount of commerce. When I have free workers and have use for my food (e.g. libraries or caste), I can build better places.

No rule without exception. This case is the exception, I think.
Building a cottage on plains is in this rare case at early game a good idea, when it is riverside and max 1-2 per full-food-city.

It's not really about the plains cottage, it's about your understanding of food. Btw, what I said especially applies to the early, not the late game. Unhappy faces are just that, unhappy faces. They don't do any harm, and they don't consume food. No reason to avoid them if it's just from growth. Other types of anger are a different beast though. Like drafting and war. That has to be taken seriously.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Hills should largely be avoided until the late game, unless you have nothing else to work.

That surprises me. Can you suggest me something to read about this?
I really like to use mines e.g. for wonderbuilding or times, where I need to lower the unhappiness of whipping and slow the pop regrowth

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

It's not really about the plains cottage, it's about your understanding of food. Btw, what I said especially applies to the early, not the late game. Unhappy faces are just that, unhappy faces. They don't do any harm, and they don't consume food. No reason to avoid them if it's just from growth. Other types of anger are a different beast though. Like drafting and war. That has to be taken seriously.

Unhappy faces doesn't consume food? Really?

No, wait, I can prove this isn't right: When u conquer a foreign city, you lose population directly because all the unhappy people needs to eat their 2 anyway. If they had no hunger, the city wouldn't decline.

But I may be wrong. My argument holds only for the case, where unhappy faces eat their 2.

 

[jorissimo]

Unhappy faces doesn't consume food? Really?

No, wait, I can prove this isn't right: When u conquer a foreign city, you lose population directly because all the unhappy people needs to eat their 2 anyway. If they had no hunger, the city wouldn't decline.

That's because there's so much unhappiness that even the citizens that exist can't feed themselves. That's very do different from unhappiness from surplus pop.

 

[jorissimo]

That surprises me. Can you suggest me something to read about this?
I really like to use mines e.g. for wonderbuilding or times, where I need to lower the unhappiness of whipping and slow the pop regrowth

Mines can have their uses, wonders are a good example. Also early game when you only have mining. But they are largely secondary to food and commerce.

 

[sampsa]

If you seem to have "too much food" you should share it with another city. Mines are good only for wonder building pretty much and there are also forests. I do build some grass mines as sometimes there is nothing better available. But make no mistake - 221 is simply better than 131.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 4: Getting up Trade and defence (T73 - xx, 1/2)

Goals until T90:

1. Tech Fishing -> Writing (for libraries) -> Sailing -> Maths
2. Connect the iron and build 3 spears in barrack-towns as defence
3. Library at Delhi, run 2 scientists; start a library in our new city
4. Granaries in every city
5. Build 2 more workers (sums up to 6)
6. Improve the country: destroy the jungle and build greenland riverside cottages instead so every secondary city has 2
7. Find a way to China, Persia and Arabia by sea
8. Contact Mongolians, Japanese, Spain, England and maybe Mali (after contact delete the unit to save upkeep costs)

T73:
We met the Mongols. Our troops start to scout the coastline. The coastline to China and Mongolia is important for war times wit Persia - as backup.
We maxed overflow in our capital.
T74:
Persia has Alphabet. Let's trade for Writing then.

But is it wise to give IW for Writing? He has Iron near his cap, but no copper...

Is it normal, that I can see, which tiles are improved even when they are in fog? It seems, Persia has improved their sheep, but not their horses yet.

I hesitate to hare my knowledge about Iron that early. But I know: When I research some steps into Writing, Persia will sell it a bit cheaper... let's try it again next turn.

Iron is free from jungle now. One city is unhappy and builds granary, which should be whipped next turn (next planned is worker)

T75:
See, Persia trades now with IW:

Now we change to library in our capital and whip it out next.

The sea way to China is blocked by barbarians:

I delete my unit in north-asia because of upkeep costs. Maybe this gives me Sailing 1 turn earlier in 79 instead of 80.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 4: Getting up Trade and defence (T73 - 90, 2/2)

T76:
I asked myself, if it could be an idea to settle more cities. What is the effect on city upkeep?
As far as I have seen, it's only 0.2 per number of cities in the other cities, so roundabout 1 more as sum of every other city. For the new city it is around 1 and around 1 for distance to palace. Means: The new spot costs me 3 per turn. With the base commerce, the trade route and working 1other tile it makes profit directly, when I work a sea tile. And this holds definitely for the next 2 cities.

So when I build it at the "later spot" here, it gives me directly 1-2

But the earlier I start, the earlier I get the culture to level 2 and can use the valuable cows. En plus I can put some cottages here, which gives profit.

T79:
We made it to get Sailing until T79. And we thought about settling more aggressively, because the next 2 city spots pay for itself. Thus the first 2 cities produce settler and worker, while the others work on granary, workboat and lighthouse.

I am surprised, how quick the Indian workers get out of jobs. Razing this jungle is easy like cake.

T82:
The settler will settle spot 5 named "Next" next turn, and the next settler is in production already. We now need to make sure, we have the ability to build an army quick. We need axes (only for barbs from east), spears (Persia) and some bows (barbs again). Hatty has Alpha too, but doesn't want to share already. I would rather trade with Hatty than with anyone else.

T85:
I have met Toku. Now delete the unit and let the upkeep sink to 0 again.

T86:
I met Mali. Only France and England left.

T90:
This opens with something nasty. Cathy wants my elephants. This reminds me so sell my resources early to not be needed to give in... and Hatty wants IW. Well... no! I want to sell this with maths to you for Alpha.

Now we have 6 cities. The last one took my upkeep +5 , which I had compensated by cottaging the bananas:

Now we are finished with the indian peninsula. And there are some troops in our production stack, which could be easily spilled out.

Let's look at the Goals:

1. Tech Fishing -> Writing (for libraries) -> Sailing -> Maths	DONE (and traded for Alphabet)
2. Connect the iron and build 3 spears in barrack-towns as defence	DONE in half (connected, but spears are only in production line)
3. Library at Delhi, run 2 scientists; start a library in our new city	Library DONE, scientists started now, began a second library in Bombay
4. Granaries in every city	3 granaries built, last 1 ready next turn
5. Build 2 more workers (sums up to 6)	DONE
6. Improve the country: destroy the jungle and build greenland riverside cottages instead so every secondary city has 2	DONE
7. Find a way to China, Persia and Arabia by sea	DONE
8. Contact Mongolians, Japanese, Spain, England and maybe Mali (after contact delete the unit to save upkeep costs)	Only France and England left
Additional	We settled 2 more cities and filled the indian peninsula (and we can finance it)

Compared with the other games:
- Weaker eco than Frederic, but better land area; having potential to get rich very soon after calendar
- Better commerce and better food than Dschingis, but lower industry production and much lower army size

Next goals until T115:
- Definitely get known to Spain, England and France
- Build 1 more workers (i don't need that many to finish the cities)
- Research Calendar, Currency and Construction, trade for HBR
- Connect all the happiness resources, build mines
- Build an academy in capital, thus reach number 1 in commerce rating
- Start with building an elepult army to conquer Persia or maybe south of China

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 5: Connect the happiness resources and prepare for first war (T91 - 120, chapter 1/2)

T95:
Now the 4 core cities have each a granary. Library is built in the city near the fish.
T97:
We are 1 turn before reaching Calendar. Now we can grow 3 more pop in every city. Next 2 turns we will connect one happiness resource each.

T98:
Finally reached Calendar, and connected the dye, the first happiness resource, which is additional a great commerce for our capital. If nothing changes, 7 turns till currency. But things will change, we grow over our limits and use the resources directly. Like you see, is Persia developing Construction now.

For a better understanding I renamed the cities:

 

[jorissimo]

Delhi stagnant at size 6 is not great, a good rule of thumb is size 10 capital in 1 AD. That's like 15 turns from now.

 

[jorissimo]

Btw I wouldn't go construction. You have 6 cities and land to develop. I would attack at Engineering, but I'd get Civil Service first.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@jorissimo
I would march a stack of swordsman into Persia and Egypt. Not jumping into deep jungle.

 

[jorissimo]

@jorissimo
I would march a stack of swordsman into Persia and Egypt. Not jumping into deep jungle.

On this level, sure. That wouldn't work on Immortal though.