East Timor Mark II

Nobody said:
I actually like the Idea of Australia being the Sheriff of SE Asia as long as there cool with the current deputys of Polynesia.
I don't. South East Asia can go to hell for all I care. I also don't see any point in being a sheriff, it's pretty American wild west for starters :smug:

Meleager said:
Only small, but it makes you wonder. The Indonesians ignore our requests regarding captured Australians, and we don't withdraw our ambassador. But the moment we don't do what Indonesia wants their ambassador is gone :shake: and were the arrogant ones. :rolleyes:
Indonesia being hipocritical. There's a headline. :rolleyes: I also love how they talk like Australia has arrested the West Papuan boat people, and demand they send back their "brothers" :lol:
 
What does Jakarta expect to gain by making a public row about this? Withdrawing an ambassador is a pretty strong signal, and it seems calculated to draw int'l attention to the whole affair, which doesn't seem in Jakarta's interest.
 
rmsharpe said:
From my uninformed viewpoint, it sounds like weakening the government and possibily splitting up these territories is ultimately in Australia's strategic interest.

If your emperor George Bush II had had real vision, he would have
responded to the islamic terrorist Bali bombings by recognising the independence of those Hindu people from the evil Javan islamic
empire and sending a carrier fleet to break up the archipelago.
 
If your emperor George Bush II had had real vision, he would have
responded to the islamic terrorist Bali bombings by recognising the independence of those Hindu people from the evil Javan islamic
empire and sending a carrier fleet to break up the archipelago.

Pah who needs america, The ANZACS can take indonesia alone, Indonesias got no hope of bombing australia unless they can take down their F18s first, no invasion can happen while the Australian navys frigates (and 3 from nz) can out fight the indonesian ones. A few large land battles in new gunine and timor just to prove that ANZAC mobile armour can out fight sheer numbers of indonesian army. The Australian subs can cut off the home islands and F111s can bomb targets across jarakater. Cutting off the islands it would just be a matter of time before we could work our way throught the islands liberating them. It might take 10 years but we could win. Bombing and starving the goverment, slowing taking the islands in huge battles, and while we get ready for each island hop, fanatically local milita with SAS back up would be hassling them.

And sure right now it might look like a big job with australia not having a large army and New Zealand having nothing. But if war broke out NZ would mobilse we are a warrior nation we just have no enemy at the moment. Our pilots would be in F16s as fast america could ship them here, and if we draft on both sides of the tasman we could get 2million men. (NZ alone put 500,000 in ww2 when the country had 2million population now we have 4 mill population and australia has 20)
 
Of course if Indonisa should Balkenise then that wouldnt be a good idea.
With numerous fragments breaking into countless small fifdoms. That would create dangerous situation. (piracy, drug trade, terorism, trade in general)

Indonesia is poblematic but at leats it modern and (corrupt) democratic nation. Open warfare would not be productive. I wouldnt advocate it unless it was for defense.
 
Nobody said:
Pah who needs america, The ANZACS can take indonesia alone, Indonesias got no hope of bombing australia unless they can take down their F18s first, no invasion can happen while the Australian navys frigates (and 3 from nz) can out fight the indonesian ones. A few large land battles in new gunine and timor just to prove that ANZAC mobile armour can out fight sheer numbers of indonesian army. The Australian subs can cut off the home islands and F111s can bomb targets across jarakater. Cutting off the islands it would just be a matter of time before we could work our way throught the islands liberating them. It might take 10 years but we could win. Bombing and starving the goverment, slowing taking the islands in huge battles, and while we get ready for each island hop, fanatically local milita with SAS back up would be hassling them.

And sure right now it might look like a big job with australia not having a large army and New Zealand having nothing. But if war broke out NZ would mobilse we are a warrior nation we just have no enemy at the moment. Our pilots would be in F16s as fast america could ship them here, and if we draft on both sides of the tasman we could get 2million men. (NZ alone put 500,000 in ww2 when the country had 2million population now we have 4 mill population and australia has 20)

lol
I guess we could slap a fresh coat of paint and give our skyhawks a jump start that may get them in the air, but all our pilots have gone overseas so no one knows how to fly them.
And arent our frigates on the other side of the world?
With all the dole bludgers and people who really dont care, I cant see much of a line forming for them to go to war.
Also somehow i think that even if Aussie and Indonesia went to war I think the current government would want no part in it being the tree huggers that they are :D :D :D
Sorry Aussie's sadly I think you'd be on your own if it comes down to it.
Edit:Although I do think that Austrailia would win relatively easily and wouldnt actually need our help, not that we have got anything to give them.
 
boarder said:
lol
I guess we could slap a fresh coat of paint and give our skyhawks a jump start that may get them in the air, but all our pilots have gone overseas so no one knows how to fly them.
And arent our frigates on the other side of the world?
With all the dole bludgers and people who really dont care, I cant see much of a line forming for them to go to war.
Also somehow i think that even if Aussie and Indonesia went to war I think the current government would want no part in it being the tree huggers that they are :D :D :D
Sorry Aussie's sadly I think you'd be on your own if it comes down to it.
Edit:Although I do think that Austrailia would win relatively easily and wouldnt actually need our help, not that we have got anything to give them.
You kiwis shouldn't put yourselves down like that. You could provide cannon fodder :p And the ever more important Kiwi jokes. :smug:
 
You underestimate the New Zealand Military, it is small but its good at what it does.

Our airforce is good at what it does, Helicopter and Airlift it does well, it can spot subs and the like with our orions. For fighter jets we will just buy them off america and the americans can train us (if american isnt involved im sure they will help out with this kinda stuff).

Our navy is getting stronger in a few years it will be in a ok situation.

And our army is small but effective and if i didnt mention it earliy we would draft and send them in a cannon foder the survivers could come home and tell storys about how hard it was but they won threw.

As far as New Zealand not getting involved that is silly, just because we didnt go fight in iraq dosent mean we won't fight to defend our northern neighbours. New Zealand had no reason to go to Iraq, Iraq never attack us, Iraq never attacked our allies, the UN never said we should and We are not allies of america. Australia is our ally, they are our neighbour, we have basicly the same Foreign Policy as them with regards to Asia and Pacific, and well if Australia ever got taken out then new zealand would just fall over.
 
Nobody said:
You underestimate the New Zealand Military, it is small but its good at what it does.

Our airforce is good at what it does, Helicopter and Airlift it does well, it can spot subs and the like with our orions. For fighter jets we will just buy them off america and the americans can train us (if american isnt involved im sure they will help out with this kinda stuff).

Our navy is getting stronger in a few years it will be in a ok situation.

And our army is small but effective and if i didnt mention it earliy we would draft and send them in a cannon foder the survivers could come home and tell storys about how hard it was but they won threw.

As far as New Zealand not getting involved that is silly, just because we didnt go fight in iraq dosent mean we won't fight to defend our northern neighbours. New Zealand had no reason to go to Iraq, Iraq never attack us, Iraq never attacked our allies, the UN never said we should and We are not allies of america. Australia is our ally, they are our neighbour, we have basicly the same Foreign Policy as them with regards to Asia and Pacific, and well if Australia ever got taken out then new zealand would just fall over.

Yeah I was just taking the mickey due to the poor state it is in, I wasn't being serious :crazyeye: :crazyeye: :crazyeye:
 
h4ppy said:
If you're not our allies why should we train you?
Money...

Plus Australia would put their weight behind the New Zealand request. Ofcourse, how much the US would actually listen to Australia has yet to be seen. Although, Bush seems to like us.
 
If you're not our allies why should we train you?


Because we are very good freinds, Because although we are not legally allied we are still "allies" meaning we wouldnt let each other die. And because America has helped so many jerk nations around the world im sure they could lend us a hand
 
EdwardTking said:
If your emperor George Bush II had had real vision, he would have
responded to the islamic terrorist Bali bombings by recognising the independence of those Hindu people from the evil Javan islamic
empire and sending a carrier fleet to break up the archipelago.
Is this supposed to be sarcasm?
 
Small bump, but only because this is getting insane. :crazyeye:



Cartoon fury over Papua row
From:
By staff writers and AAP
March 29, 2006


AN Indonesian newspaper has depicted John Howard and Alexander Downer as a pair of sex-crazed dingoes, in a new low point in the Papua visa row.

The cartoons are among an outpouring of nationalist outrage against Australia in Indonesia.


Last week the Australian Immigration Department granted temporary visas to 42 of the 43 Papuans who had landed at Cape York in January seeking asylum.

Today a former Indonesian intelligence director suggested that the unsuccessful refugee may have been an Australian-trained spy.

His claim is the latest barb directed at Canberra in the dispute.

There have also been protest rallies, the recall of Indonesia's ambassador from Canberra and cries from several senior Indonesian lawmakers for a full severing of relations.

Major newspapers have carried cartoons critical of Australia, including a front-page drawing of John Howard and Downer as two dingoes having sex – the prime minister is on to asking the foreign minister to seize Papua for Australia.

Another had the hairy arm of a gorilla labelled as Australia shaking hands with a suit and cufflink-clad Indonesian arm.


Amid mounting conspiracy theories that Australia has a secret plan for a re-run in Papua of East Timor's separation, former Indonesian intelligence director AC Manullang wrote in the Republika newspaper that Australian and American agents were active in the province.

Mr Manullang was one of many senior Indonesians to make bizarre claims that the 2002 Bali bombings were really the handiwork of the CIA or the Israeli Mossad.

But his latest tirade reflects the mood and thoughts of many leading Indonesians, who see Australia's visa decision as fresh evidence of a western conspiracy to break up and weaken the world's most populous Muslim nation.

"Intelligence reports show that Indonesians – in this case Papuans – have long been recruited by foreign intelligence agencies, including Australia's Office of National Assessments, to stir up Indonesia," he said, questioning why one Papuan had not been given a visa.

"The one Papuan rejected in his asylum application may be an intelligence agent of Australia.

"Information shows that preparing a ship and getting them on board was the central part of an Australian intelligence effort to create an image that there is no comfort or security in Papua."

He said Australia was using the same diplomatic tactics it used in the leadup to East Timor's 1999 independence vote, which ended in a bloody rampage by pro-Jakarta militiamen.

The spokesman for President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has dismissed demands for a severing of diplomatic ties, while Mr Downer has called for calm.

Indonesia's over Canberra's granting of visas to 42 Papuan asylum seekers. Mr Downer said a memorial service for nine Australians who died on for quake-hit Nias island last year must go ahead this weekend despite the bitter row.

"We've explained to the Indonesians that this decision in relation to the asylum seekers was one made consistent with Australian law by Department of Immigration officers ... we just have to accept the decision," Mr Downer said on Sky News.

"Their reaction to it has been understandable, but, both of us agree that ... the commemoration of the deaths of nine young Australians who were helping the Indonesians in Indonesia's time of need is way beyond politics and it will be going ahead."

He said Australia would find a "convenient time" for Prime Minister John Howard's next visit to Indonesia.

And just a day after a senior military spokesman raised doubts over whether the memorial service would go ahead, Jakarta said Indonesia's director-general of defence strategy, Major General Dadi Susanto, would attend Sunday's ceremony.

Veterans Affairs Minister Bruce Billson will lead the Australian delegation.

Letters of invitation had been sent to the chiefs of the Indonesian army, navy and air force, as well as President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono.

The nine died after their Sea King helicopter crashed during a rescue mission following a massive magnitude 8.7 earthquake on Nias last April.

The Australian Navy is taking about 30 relatives of the service men and women killed in the crash to Nias, ferrying them on a C-130 Hercules and the HMAS Tobruk.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18646815-30977,00.html

Can anyone say "paranoia".
 
The Indonesian anger over Australia granting of asylum to 42 West Papuans appears irrational, however they see this as a rerun of Australia's duplicity over East Timor. Over a period of 25 years successive Australian governments afirmed Indonesia's right to rule East Timor as an integral part of Indonesia so it's hardly suprising the Indonesian's are a tad paranoid about Australia's commitment to Indonesian sovereignty over West Papua.

Don't get me wrong I didn't support Indonesia's invasion and occupation of East Timor just as I don't support the undemocratic way Indonesia got control of West Papua and it's continuing oppression of West Papuans and a refusal to allow them democratic expression.

The day the Whitlam Government turned a blind eye to Indonesia's invasion and occupation of East Timor (as did successive governments) set the scene for the problems Australia faces with Indonesia over West Papua now. When governments chose realpolitik over principle and then at a later point in time decide principle is more important they expose their original dishonesty.

Don't wait for Howard and Downer to discover their democratic principles in relation to West Papua, just like East Timor Australian public opinion will dictate Australia's attitude to West Papua. Howard and the Indonesian's will be praying the Indonesian army don't do anything stupid in West Papua otherwise things could get very messy.
 
I am no fan of Howard or Downer, but frankly that cartoon is a little offensive.
 
gmanne said:
I am no fan of Howard or Downer, but frankly that cartoon is a little offensive.

Yes, it is offensive and does nothing to progress better relations and understanding between Australians and Indonesians. Perhaps the Indonesian media are testing Australian's sensitivity to poor taste cartoons, if so they will be disappointed.

However, the anniversary of the deaths of the Australians on Nias is something the Indonesians would do well to treat with respect.
 
The Papuans are ethnically and culturally a different culture from Indonesia and this is just a hold over of Dutch colonialism. Of course the Papuans are divided into so many hundreds (if not thousands) of small tribal groups each with their own language and culture it would be near impossible for them to unite east and west papua.

I recall that in the 1960's the Indonesians threatened to sieze east papua and it was only after Australia threatened to declare war that they gave up their dream of conquoring the whole island.
 
I woke up this moring to find that the situation was esculating with 5 Indonesian warships placed off West Papua's coast for the purposes of preventing any more asylum seekers from reaching our shores. The Australian navy has also just finished an operation in which shots were fired at Indonesian fishing boats, they won't like that.

Just to make things interesting, here is a story from the indonesian perspective: http://www.antara.co.id/en/seenws/?id=11031 .

Watch out for anti-RI Papuans seeking asylum at A'lian embassy

Jakarta (ANTARA News) - Security personnel need to constantly watch out for a group of anti-Indonesia Papuans planning to enter the Australian embassy premises in Jakarta although apparently they have yet to decide on the right time to do that, intelligence observer and lecturer at the State Intelligence Institute (IIN) Wawan H. Purwanto said.

Their target is the Australian embassy, and the number of Papuas planning to seek political asylum by entering the embassy premises, may reach hundreds, he said in Jakarta on Wednesday.

He added that actually they have yet to make up their mind, and they may be thinking twice after expressing their intention on various occasions, including seminars and interviews with the press.

"The plan is already there, including international funding in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane," he said.

Besides the pro-Independent Papua groups in Australia, the same group in London had also been raising funds to finance various black campaigns on the Papua issue, he said.

In the meantime, the Indonesian government and people, according to Wawan, have yet to put up an effective resistance against the black campaigns of the groups in Australia, the UK and in the US.

They will continue rallying their forces, and would not stop until they have achieved their goal of having Papua Province secede from the Unitary State of the Indonesian Republic, he pointed out.


Besides those in Australia, the United Kingdom and in the United States, certain elements even in the Netherlands had often held international meetings on the Papua issue in The Hague, Wawan said.

To counter the black campaigns, the Indonesian Foreign Ministry must be active in providing correct information and understanding to the international community in case of incorrect news reports on the Papua Province. Furthermore, the foreign office also needs to take tactical, strategic and synergic measures with other relevant government institutions and agencies including the Military (TNI) and the ministry of home affairs, he said.

"We should not become another victim of our own ignorance, such as by what Ramos Horta had done the other day (in the case of our loss of East Timor). I wish to invite our legislators to be active like what had been done by Senator Kerry Nettle who had given a testimony in various cities (in Australia)," he said.

Touching on the plan of the House`s foreign affairs commission to summon Australian Ambassador to Indonesia Bill Farmer and Indonesian Ambassador to Australia and Vanuatu Hamzah Thayeb for a hearing soon, Wawan said it was a good idea.

"I think there is no problem with that. Communication will prevent miscommunication," he said.

In the meantime, regarding the deteriorating relations between Indonesia and Australia following Canberra`s decision to grant temporary staying visas to 42 of the 43 political asylum seekers from Papua Province, deputy secretary general of the Social Justice Party (PKS) central executive board Fahri Hamzah said that it was about time for the Indonesian government to remove all covers of Australia`s foreign policy on Indonesia.

This is very important for the public, because they would know who the neighboring country really is, he said.

The relations between the two countries had been deteriorating in the last couple of days after the Federal Government through the Australian Immigration Department granted temporary staying visas to 42 political asylum seekers from Papua province which the Australian media -- ABC -- termed separatist West Papua.


President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono told the Indonesian Ambassador to Australia to return to Jakarta, and will review a number of cooperation schemes with Australia.

Here is the warship story, also indonesian perspective: http://www.antara.co.id/en/seenws/?id=10994

Five RI warship hold patrol in RI-Australia's borders

Surabaya, E Java (ANTARA News) - At least five Indonesian warships are patrolling in the Papua waters that bordering with the Australian waters, including to seek possibility in the increase of Indonesians seeking asylum in the neighboring country.

"The Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL) has ordered two warships, namely KRI Layang and KRI Sutedi Senaputra to the Navy Field in Merakuke and there were also two or three more warship assigned to pacify the President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono`s visit to Merauke," spokesman of the Navy`s Eastern Fleet, Lt Col Toni Syaiful told ANTARA here on Wednesday.

He did not deny when asked whether these warship were also intended to watch closely the possible efforts of Indonesians seeking asylum in Australian.

"Yes, of course, the warship would also pay attention to that issue. For example, if they find a ship with some people on board, there would be a check. And the rest would be up to them, whether there is a violation or not," he said.

He added the 42 Papua who were granted a temporary asylum by the Australian Immigration Office recently went to Australia on board of small boat that might have no license.

"Before they arrived in Australia, we (the Navy) once were called by the Australian, probably, non-governmental organization, asking whether we knew their position or gave any assistance. We said we did not know about it," he added.

Besides in the waters bordering with Australia, the Navy also deployed three warships in the Papua`s northern waters with the main task of patrolling the sea from any violation, such as illegal fishing, smuggling and illegal logging.

This might not end anytime soon :scan:

Oerdin said:
I recall that in the 1960's the Indonesians threatened to sieze east papua and it was only after Australia threatened to declare war that they gave up their dream of conquoring the whole island.
That would be because PNG was an Australian external territory at the time.
 
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