Economy break downs

KrikkitTwo

Immortal
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
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With all the debate over the different types of economy, I feel it might be good to find some way to classify them.

The key thing an 'economy' needs to provide is
1. Techs
2. Enough gold to support you

Based on that, you have a numbe of basic ways of getting those

1. Techs
Research from Commerce (C)
Research from Specialists (S)
Research from Sankore Reigious buildings (R)
Stealing with Espionage points (E)
Research from Hammers (P)

2. Gold
Gold from Commerce (C)
Gold from Specialists (S)
Gold from Minaret religious buildings (R)
Gold from Holy City Shrines+HQs (H)
Gold from Hammers (P)

Now R+P can generally be eliminated as an economy type since they almost never can provide enough gold nor enough science to pay maintenance/keep up in tech (although they can be useful add ons)

so one really has 9 types of economy, listing Science first

CC
CS
CH
SC
SS
SH
EC
ES
EH

or more appropriately, one has 6 types of economy that can get combined.
 
I would add as a source of techs, techs received in trade, in exchange for a peace treaty, or from tribute demands.

I have had games where I couldn't research as quickly as the AIs with their tech bonus, but I could keep up with their tech rate by aggressively trading techs.
 
Nice idea ( that passed my mind some time ago, but never became a solid idea).

Some of these types are hard to acheive in pure state, and some looks seriously inferior to others. Are you thinking on a breakdown of all of them ( strengths and weaknesses, how to implement, etc )?
 
You need to add in research from tech trading and gold (or for that matter research) from corporations.
 
You may want to break commerce down a bit more.

Commerce from cottaged tiles (cottages/hamlets/villages/towns) which increase their yield over the cource of the game.

Commerce from high commerce fixed resources (gold/silver dye, etc...)

Commerce from non-cottage improvements (Windmills/watermills/frorrest preserves).

Commerce from water (lakes/coast/ocean/rivers) affected by Colossus.

Commerce from trade routes, every extra trade route generally equals commerce from 1 worked cottage tile. Fixed and independent of what tiles are worked by citizens.
 
Yep, I agree with the above poster. Commerce comes from different places, trade routes, great people, etc. To the OP, I'm not familiar with much of your terminology, though.

I've never heard of "R+P". Would that be trade "R"outes + great "P"eople? That would make sense considering what was left out. Trade routes can be a big boost to your empire (archipelago w/ early lighthouse and open borders, for example) for at least part of the game under certain circumstances.

I apologize if I'm missing something here.
 
The origional poster defiens the abbreviations in the first post R is for religios buildings and P is prduction or hammers.

Another addition for gold is to separate specialists (mechants/priests) from great people. Then there is settled GPs, phophets +5 gold, merchant +6 gold versus the large trade route yield of teh great Merchant which can funs research for a long time.
 
Ahh, I see it now. The letters above ARE the ones he's using.

I'm so used to people using abbreviations I never heard of from terminology they defined in previous threads, I completely missed the fact that he used the exact same letters above.
 
Commerce sources

Commerce comes from two things:
- worked tiles
- traderoutes

In case commerce is the main supporting pillar of your economy, you generally run Cottage Economy because non-cottage improvements and resources are limited in their quantity (resources) or low in commerce yield (non-cottage improvements, unimproved tiles - eg. financial + coastal tile).

If your commerce comes mainly from traderoutes, it's unlikely to be sole basis for an economy. You might be running hybrid, trade, or other economy that uses trade commerce as secondary source or minor source.

It's important to understand that some economy types do not rely on working many tiles - eg. specialist economy might rely on working only a few high food tiles per city, then running specialists with rest. When economy is based on high food surplus, hammers may also be gained easily with the whip. Cottage-based economy relies almost wholly on working tiles. Generally the food surplus is low (except in city or cities specifically designated for running specialists - aka GP Farm(s)) and whipping is thus more painful. Also have to remember that cottages grow when they're worked, and citizens whipped away mean some cottages not worked, thus not growing either. Hammers are most likely also gained by working tiles: mines, workshops, watermills... This is incompatible with the cottages, so separation of commerce cities and production cities is more defined than in food-based economies.


Beaker sources

I would divide beaker sources as:
- commerce (slider)
- specialists
- settled great people
- lightbulbing
- buildings
- from other players (whether by trading, begging, demanding, or accepting for peace)
- stealing

Commerce slider - See sources of commerce above. Probable economy here is cottage based, but trade economy is possible alternative.

Specialists (usually combination of scientists and merchants in separate cities) are efficient beaker source under Representation civic. Without rep they're questionable, as cottages easily surpass them in beaker generation. There are other benefits from food + specialist based economies though, so that alone isn't enough to dismiss this. Generally building Pyramids to enable early representation makes this choice more efficient.

Great People require either wonders or specialists or both. Most commonly they're used to lightbulb technologies or use their special abilities. Settling GPs has been debated every now and then, and some economies (eg. Obsoletes wonderspam) specifically settle great people.

Lightbulbing is (almost?) essential at highest levels of play. There are usually two basic purposes:
- beelining (eg. bulbing Philosophy, Paper, and Education with total of 4 GSes for Liberalism)
- trading (an expensive monopoly tech traded to multiple civs, possibly newly gained techs further traded)
The former (beeline) still ends with trading of the techs, when access to them by AI civs no longer presents immediate threat to the player (eg. trade Philo + Paper when you have Edu researched, trade Edu when you're near to completing Lib). So lightbulbing as form of economy relies on getting tradeable technologies.

Buildings are unlikely source for beakers. In basic game only buildings of state religion can generate beakers, even then requiring University of Sankore - a world wonder available with Paper. At 2bpt per building a temple + monastery combination (cathedrals are big to build and you can't build them to every city anyway) comes to 4bpt total - a drop in the bucket when we consider research per city normally expected, so this is mainly side effect of the wonder or part of a religious strategy.

Other players
Trading is most common. Trading itself is not an economy, as it requires something to trade to the AI. It has been shown that buying technologies for gold is viable, but more commonly technologies are traded for other techs, and thus to get a tech in trade you have to get techs from some other source to offer in trade.
Begging (aka asking another player to spare a tech for a good friend, requires pleased or better relations) won't go far by itself. Occasionally you get something, but a couple of gold is more likely than a tech.
Demanding (at relations lower than pleased) is similar to begging. Techs aren't easy to come by.
Peace treaties are often made with one player (usually not human player) giving something for the peace. Asking for techs in the treaty is common, but in cIV the AI may easily be willing to suffer ultimate defeat before giving in.

Stealing techs is less efficient than researching them unless EPs are available by means other than espionage slider / spy specialists. Essentially this means Great Spies and infiltration. See eg. Sumerian Spy Scam thread for more about this - based on my tries to use infiltration and stealing as main beaker source as outlined in SSS thread I'd dismiss this as inefficient method on at least levels I play on (Prince and Monarch).


... and then there's the gold sources list but I'm bailing out now.
 
Stealing techs is less efficient than researching them unless EPs are available by means other than espionage slider / spy specialists. Essentially this means Great Spies and infiltration. See eg. Sumerian Spy Scam thread for more about this - based on my tries to use infiltration and stealing as main beaker source as outlined in SSS thread I'd dismiss this as inefficient method on at least levels I play on (Prince and Monarch).

I wanted to put here one warning sign: even counting with failures, stealing techs is cheaper than researching them ( in terms of money invested in EP versus money invested in beakers). If you pour a big ammont of cash in epionage and have the spy multiplier buildings, stealing economy ( or pirate... ) is very viable ( I would say, too viable, even without the spy bomb ( check this out ) )
 
Let's consider EP vs beaker generation first:

Either can be generated with slider. In that case, relevant multipliers come from:

- Library (+25%) - Writing
- University (+25%) - Education
- Observatory (+25%) - Astronomy
- Monastery (+10% each) - Meditation, one per religion
- Laboratory (+25%) - Superconductors
- Academy (+50%) - Great Scientist

Of these relavant for early game are Library, Monastary, and Academy (University is too late for Liberalism race, but will certainly be built in the first consolidation phase post-Education). So probable multipliers for early game assuming 0-2 religions are:
+25% to +45% for most cities,
+75% to +95% for primary science city
and midgame (pre-scimeth)
+75% to +95% for most cities,
+125% to +145% for primary science city

- Courthouse (+2) - Code of Laws
- Castle (+25%) - Engineering
- Jail (+50%, +4) - Constitution
- Security Bureau (+8) - Democracy
- Intelligence Agency (+50%, +8) - Communism
- Scotland Yard (+100%) - Great Spy

Early game Courthouse is relevant, Castle is rarely built and obsoletes at Economics so I won't even count that, Jail and SB midgame, IA late game. Probable adders and multipliers early game thus:
+2 for most cities,
+100% +2 for primary EP city
and midgame:
+50%, +14 for most cities,
+150%, +14 for primary EP city

It can easily be seen that beaker multiplier is generally better and only Scotland Yard can push a city for better EP multiplier than beaker multiplier. It's easier to generate great scientists than great spies, so again if wanted it's easier to build academies than sy's.

Then about stealing:

Failures do not cost EP. They cost hammers (train more spies), time (apart from training, it has to move at move 1 to city it can steal from), and diplomatic relations (spies caught and identified cause -1 relations).

From my experience in the SSS tries a spy stationed for maximum discounts in a city with open borders and trade, even considering the high discount from EP because of infiltration, gives higher EP cost to steal then tech than the beaker cost to research it would've been.

The above considerations lead to the conclusion that researching is more efficient than stealing. Special strategies may well exist (eg. SSS as mentioned) that make stealing a good option.

Note about SSS: Apparently it's good for Immortal and Deity, but clearly not good for Monarch and below.

I'll read the SBtS1a writeup to consider how thief econ works.
 
Thanks for those filling on some of the material. Especially about Espionage, only heard about it wasn't sure makes sense it would be better on higher levels where keeping up is more important than getting ahead. [given its specialty nature I'll probably ditch it then

As for Super Specialists+Lightbulbing, I was putting that in the same category as a Specialist economy.

Also Commerce does come in multiple sources, but if it is going to be your primary source for something you will be putting Cottages somewhere (Trade Routes, Water, and Resources are nice but don't provide enough for a lot of the game)

Also although all these sources are used, the idea is which one is your primary source, that you build your civics/World+National Wonder strategy on

So Looking at the Gold first.

The advantage of Gold is that you only need so much of it (especially if you avoid Corporations) so it can often be provided by a few cities so looking at the options

Commerce Gold... this divides into two types

1) Commerce for Science
2) Something else for Science

1) In this case you Don't have a Specialized Gold City, you will be Cottage spamming everywhere with Civics
HR->US
Bureaucracy->Free Speech
Emancipation
Free Market
[Religious Civic]

National Wonders combos
Oxford+Wall Street [ Wall street is fairly useless, unless you plan on rushing a lot] in your highest commerce city
National Epic+ either National Park/Globe/ or Ironworks

World Wonders
Temple of Artemis, Great Lighthouse (early game when trade routes dominate)

Techs.. Pottery; Currency-> Corporation; Democracy; Liberalism; Printing Press; Writing, Education, Sailing->Astronomy

Disadvantages:
You need all Science and all Gold Buildings everywhere
Your Towns take time to mature, and are sensitive to pillage/sabotage
Those Rush Hammers can't be used in the Space Race

Advantages:
You don't need to Industrialize as quickly since you can get a lot of your general production from Gold Rushing, saving you a little bit of health.
Your outlying/new cities can develop faster, because the Rush hammers are transferable
Your economy is very flexible moving from Gold (ie production) to research
Best per tile research+gold

Misc: G.Scientists are better as Academies than Settling, Golden Ages can be really valuable

Good for:
Financial Leaders
Peaceful games
Culture Wins (the Cottages can be turned to culture)
Benefiting from corporations (particularly Foreign ones)

2) In this case your basic Gold city is a Highly Cottaged Capital
Civics
HR->Representation
Bureaucracy
[Labor]
[Economy] State Property/Mercantilism
[Religion]

National Wonders:
Wall Street in Capital
National Epic somewhere else

World Wonders: Temple of Artemis in Capital, Great Lighthouse if Capital Coastal

Techs: Pottery, Civil Service, Currency->Corporation, Printing Press

Disadvantages:
Limited ability to expand/adjust your gold production (State Property/ Mercantilism probably best to keep foreign corps+maintenance from sucking your money)
Capital may be slow to build those wonders

Advantages:
You only need Banks in enough other cities to build Wall Street (try and put them in high Trade cities... ie High population+Coastal)
You only need Market/Grocers in cities for Happy+Health
Your Towns are in a more guarded area

Good for:
Having an Early Shrine religion in your capital
Financial Leaders
War like games




Specialist Gold:
In this case your Gold city(ies) is flooded with Food and Merchants/Priest Specialists (both normal +Super)

Civics:
[Government]
[Legal]
Caste-> (Emancipation when necessary)
Mercantilism
[Religion] (Pacifism)

National Wonders:
Wall Street+National Epic or if this is being set up later and you have a Forested City
Wall Street + National Park (if you have a large number of Forests)

World Wonders:
Angkor Wat might be useful, since you may need to switch to some priests to build stuff in this city.
Merchant and Priest Wonders would be useful in this City.

Techs: Currency->Corporation; Code of Laws; Biology; Health Booster techs

Disadvantages:
Limited ability to expand/adjust your gold production

Advantages:
Limited need for Gold boosters

Good For:
Philosophical, Expansive, Charismatic civs



Holy Headquarters Gold: Here your gold cities are Holy cities with Shrines or your corporate HQ

[Government]
[Legal]
[Labor]
Free Market/Mercantilism (in HQ mode)
Organized Religion (in Shrine mode)

National Wonders:
Wall Street in best Gold city otherwise open

World Wonders:


Techs: Currency->Corporation; Corporation founding techs; Religion founding techs; Meditation; Monotheism; Alphabet, Code of Laws, Constitution, Democracy, Communism (for spies to change opponent civics)

Disadvantages:
Cost and Limited number of 'spreaders' (Missionaries/Executives)
Great Persons required for HQ/Shrine
Holy Cities not always placed well (maybe appearing where you want another two national Wonders)
Corporate competion/resource limitations
Corporate/Religious benefit to others
'Blocking Civics' Theocracy, Mercantilism, State Property
Monasteries not buildable past Scientific Method making religions harder to spread.
[Bugginess of Inflation+ corporate maintenance]

Advantages:
Limited need for Gold booster buildings (in general)
Gold yield can be expanded (at the very least to Your cities)
Corporate cost to rivals
HQs Can be placed in Wall Street city
Independent of Tile usage for easy combo with Commerce/Specialist Gold

Good For:
Philosophical civs
Cultural Wins (Multiple religions for Cathedrals, and the Culture Corps.)
 
science... sonce others have examined espionage much better, I will limit my examination of the sciences to

Commerce Science
and
Specialist Science

Commerce Science: basically depends on whether the gold is Centralized (HQ/Shrine/Specialist) or Decentralized (Cottage everywhere)
Decentralized is the basic cottage Economy (see above with Commerce gold)

Commerce Science with Centralized Gold is where the slider is close to 100% and your science cities are cottaged up

Civics:
US
Free Speech
Emancipation
Free Market (State Property if you are not relying on domestic corporations for gold)
[Religion]

National Wonders:
Oxford in best Commerce city, National Epic... wherever

Wonders: Great Library in Best Commerce City

Techs: Pottery; Democracy; Printing Press; Liberalism, Writing, Education, Astronomy, Superconductor

Disadvantages:
Science buildings needed everywhere
Cottages [Time, vulnerability]
Oxford+National Epic+Great Library not the best Research situation

Advantages:
Few Gold buildings needed
best per tile research output
US provides some extra hammers for the science cities
Increasing Gold need can be dealt with (drop the Slider)

Misc: G. Scientists should be Academied rather than Settled

Good for:
Financial, Creative, Philosophical Leaders
Peaceful games




Specialist Science:
Research is coming from Specialists, Settled Specialists and Lightbulbs, cities are full of Farms
Civics:
Representation* (Vital)
[Legal]
Caste->(Emancipation)
Mercantilism
Pacifism

National Wonders:
Oxford+National Epic for Science City (includes an Academy+ possibly Settled Great Scientists)

World Wonders:
Pyramids
Great Library (in Ox+NE city)
Statue of Liberty

Techs: Constitution (or Pyramids); Banking; Literature; Education; Writing; Astronomy; Biology; Health Boosters

Disadvantages:
Health and Happiness needs of massive specialist cities
Emancipation hurts
Representation Strongly needed

Advantages:
Rapid growth in Science (v. Cottages)
Population can be rediverted easily to hammer tiles
In case of Centralized Gold slider can be adjusted at will (Culture for more happy)

Misc: G. Scientists Settled in one Academy city rather than multiple Academies

Good for:
Philosophical, Expansive, Charismatic Leaders
 
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