Eight DOWs on the same turn

[morchuflex]

Hello.

This HAS to be a bug, or there is some hidden feature here...

Playing on Monarch, Huge, I am way ahead of everyone else in every respect and seem to be rolling towards an easy victory. My military is only 4th in numbers, but close to the top, and it's way ahead in tech (I have Riflemen and frigates, everyone else is still using bows, maces and rowboats).
I have open borders with everyone.

In 1774, Catherine DOWs me and attempts some futile attacks (6 longbows try an amphibious attack against a city guarded by machine guns )

But suddenly, in 1778, eight (8) other civs DOW me on the same turn.
- None of them were Catherine's allies or vassals.
- Half of them were pleased with me, the others moderately annoyed because I had refused various demands.
- To avoid p***ing anyone, I had switched to free religion somes turns ago, so it was not a religious problem and Catherine was not the leader of any religious group.

I was so amazed that I reloaded (I play with random seed ON) to see if history would repeat itself. It did, three times.

Anyone cares to explain? I can see only 2 explanations: either it's a bug, or a hidden feature that makes everyone DOW you when you're too much ahead.
That would be lowly, game-breaking and... heart-breaking.

 

[Spearthrower]

Sounds like an AP declaration of Holy War against you.

Put up the save file if you say that's not a possibility!

 

[PibbZ]

What a lovely challenge! If you have machine guns aswell its even better. Prepare for 2-4 Great Generals to pop up if they keep on coming with such weak stacks

On subject, why did they do it? Well i have no idea. Maybe they were not allied to or vassals of Catherine, but some other civ, that did the war declaration? Has happened to me, one civ with a lot of vassals, and allied to another major civ with lots of vassals declared war at me, making me effectively at war with 7 civs (of 17 total).

 

[Arlborn]

AP holy war?
Sounds funny, specially because the game is probably not lost, as you got machine guns and etc...

A save would be cool.

 

[_alphaBeta_]

Check the log for something about the Apostolic Palace. Chances are they voted for all members to declare war on you. Very powerful indeed, although it's fun when you're the one doing it.

 

[morchuflex]

Check the log for something about the Apostolic Palace. Chances are they voted for all members to declare war on you.

That would make sense, but... I thought it couldn't happen if I had no state religion...
I'll check anyway. 'Be back soon.

 

[morchuflex]

That would make sense, but... I thought it couldn't happen if I had no state religion...
I'll check anyway. 'Be back soon.

I have checked: the event log says nothing. And the countries that have DOWed me belong to 3 different religions, including one I founded myself.
Is there any place to look for AP-related stuff?

 

[_alphaBeta_]

That would make sense, but... I thought it couldn't happen if I had no state religion...
I'll check anyway. 'Be back soon.

Your lack of state religion means that it could definitely happen. You'd have a fighting chance if your state religion was the same as the palace. That makes you a full member, so then they couldn't declare on you.

Still, I thought there should be an announcement in the log about the AP voting and the results. Unless the "victim" doesn't receive this notification.

Do any of the civs that declared not have any cities of the AP's religion?

 

[mudphud]

I have checked: the event log says nothing. And the countries that have DOWed me belong to 3 different religions, including one I founded myself.
Is there any place to look for AP-related stuff?

If you aren't a voting member of the AP-religion than you won't see what they are voting on. The only thing you will see is when the AP is built and what religion it is. That being said I'm pretty sure that it must have been the AP. Even though the countries have different state religions if they have at least one city with the AP religion they are a voting member and will follow the resolutions (unless they vote defy). You running free religion has nothing to do with it either you are still a heathen.

Another annoying thing is that even if you build the UN the AP can still bother you unless you gift the tech to the nation that owns the AP.

I had a similar thing happen when I had an isolated start (ok it wasn't isolated but I killed my only neighbor) that I couldn't figure out why every few turns all my trade agreements were canceled but they would allow me to resign the agreements right away (which I needed because I lacked and resources. Finally realized it was the crazy hindus and their AP - it was strange since they were all friendly with me and would resign the trade agreements the same turn and shortly after come around offering open borders guess I should just be thankful they didn't all DoW

 

[morchuflex]

Your lack of state religion means that it could definitely happen. Do any of the civs that declared not have any cities of the AP's religion?

I think you are right: the AP's owner is Capac, he is Judaic (Catherine is, too), and all the civs that DOWed me have at least one Judaic city, while I have none.
I still contend that it's game-breaking, and a bit absurd that everyone DOWs me on religious motives while I have no state religion!
I am not sure I am willing to finish this game... It is already very slow and with all the troops likely to move, it will slow to a crawl. Not to mention, my economy is now ruined due to lack of trade. And I only have coal on one remote island that will be very hard to defend. Despite being a century ahead in tech, I am most likely to lose.

Edit: if anyone wants to finish it, the settings are: BTS 3.03, Monarch, Huge, archipelago (archipelago, medium sea level), epic speed, NO TECH TRADE, raging barbs, random seed, USA, Lincoln.
Now, I must try and remember how to upload stuff. Stay put!

 

[morchuflex]

I think you are right: the AP's owner is Capac, he is Judaic (Catherine is, too), and all the civs that DOWed me have at least one Judaic city, while I have none.
I still contend that it's game-breaking, and a bit absurd that everyone DOWs me on religious motives while I have no state religion!
I am not sure I am willing to finish this game... It is already very slow and with all the troops likely to move, it will slow to a crawl. Not to mention, my economy is now ruined due to lack of trade. And I only have coal on one remote island that will be very hard to defend. Despite being a century ahead in tech, I am most likely to lose.

Edit: if anyone wants to finish it, the settings are: BTS 3.03, Monarch, Huge, archipelago (archipelago, medium sea level), epic speed, NO TECH TRADE, raging barbs, random seed, USA, Lincoln.
Now, I must try and remember how to upload stuff. Stay put!

Edit: done! Just press enter to let Hell break though!

Don't be surprised that I have skipped Corporation and Sc Method to research less relevant stuff: I wanted to keep my wonders as long as possible, especially the LightHouse.

 

[mudphud]

I think you are right: the AP's owner is Capac, he is Judaic (Catherine is, too), and all the civs that DOWed me have at least one Judaic city, while I have none.
I still contend that it's game-breaking, and a bit absurd that everyone DOWs me on religious motives while I have no state religion!
I am not sure I am willing to finish this game... It is already very slow and with all the troops likely to move, it will slow to a crawl. Not to mention, my economy is now ruined due to lack of trade. And I only have coal on one remote island that will be very hard to defend. Despite being a century ahead in tech, I am most likely to lose.

Edit: if anyone wants to finish it, the settings are: BTS 3.03, Monarch, Huge, archipelago (archipelago, medium sea level), epic speed, NO TECH TRADE, raging barbs, random seed, USA, Lincoln.
Now, I must try and remember how to upload stuff. Stay put!

I think it makes sense even though you have no state religion since you are a heathen seeing how you don't believe in the one true faith. Hopefully it won't be as bad as you fear since most (or all) of the countries that you are at war with weren't planning on this war and will probably not send significant troops to attack (like when you bribe someone into war and they only send a couple units then declare peace as soon as possible). I'm not sure how good the AI is at planning to use the AP to declare war so hopefully they haven't built up large armies.

 

[_alphaBeta_]

Ah ok, well that must be it then. Otherwise, it's a horrible coincidence of bad luck that I've never seen before to have 8 separate civ declare war for their own reasons on exactly the same turn.

There are three types of "members" regarding the Apostolic Palace (AP).

Full members have at least once city the same religion as the AP and have that religion as their state religion. They can vote in all resolutions, run for resident and receive a production bonus for every religious (same as AP) building in their cities (+2 each).

Voting members have at least one city that has the same religion as the AP. They can vote on all resolutions, but cannot run for resident and do not receive the production bonus.

Non-members have no cities with the AP's religion. If the Resident chooses she/he can try to pass a resolution for all members (voting and full) to declare war on a non-member. If it passes by enough votes, that's exactly what happens.

If someone else builds the AP, and it's a different religion, you need to be careful. I would try to get the palace's religion in one of your cities so that you are at least a voting member with very little votes. That alone would probably have saved you. Although I'm not sure if everyone can declare war on a voting member, or if the victim needs to be a non-member. Even if they can, spreading the religion to all of your cities gives you more votes and gives you more power to vote down a resolution like this. Since you were a non-member you had nothing to say about it.

The AP can be very powerful, as you learned. I still think you should have received some notification of the vote, but it probably got lost in the mix of 8 war declaration messages. Checking the log for a bunch of blue text should show you what happened. Perhaps non-members do not receive notifications about AP votes. Seems stupid though.

 

[Spearthrower]

I still contend that it's game-breaking, and a bit absurd that everyone DOWs me on religious motives while I have no state religion!

Of course they would you heathen!! Actually, most religions hate apostates more than heathens or pagans!

 

[CivDude86]

I know how this game is going to end. Your going to capture a city then Catherine will win a diplo victory. If your the only non member then burn any Jewish cities (insert Hitler joke) you capture.

 

[morchuflex]

Of course they would you heathen!! Actually, most religions hate apostates more than heathens or pagans!

Thanks everyone for the great input!
(I still contend it's a bit illogical to DOW the greatest power in the world for religious motives. As far as I know, even a coalition of, say, the most "dedicated" Islamic countries would probably never dare DOW the USA, or even a major European nation).

 

[LiberiGlacialis]

<snip!>

(I still contend it's a bit illogical to DOW the greatest power in the world for religious motives. As far as I know, even a coalition of, say, the most "dedicated" Islamic countries would probably never dare DOW the USA, or even a major European nation).

Yea, they would. Never underestimate the power of fanatics....

On topic: So if you decide to go non-religion, it's a good idea to have extra troops, just in case the resident decided to spark off against you?

 

[Bhruic]

That could happen. Of course, if you get a Jewish city, then they become unable to declare universal war on you (they can't do that to a voting member), so it makes you a bit safer in that way.

Bh

 

[morchuflex]

That could happen. Of course, if you get a Jewish city, then they become unable to declare universal war on you (they can't do that to a voting member), so it makes you a bit safer in that way.

Bh

Next time, I'll just grab the damn AP...
BTW, what if I took and torched the city containing the AP?

 

[LiberiGlacialis]

There'd be no more AP, and I don't think you could build a new one. At least...that's what happened in Civ II and Wonders....>>