Electronics Factory problem

[x2Madda]

We can't possibly guess whether late game culture is useful at this stage. But given that in this iterations Culture plays a role like Science has in past Civ games I'm leaning toward "it will be."

I think this is the biggest change. Culture is different from what we hear so with that in mind, if the Culture tree makes it intact, to release, then buildings like this will be useful despite coming so late in the game.

Lets also not forget that it gives culture to neighboring cities (unless they change that) so it has a compounding effect. If each city can build one in the respective district then the overall net gain would be very beneficial.

As for historical context, fun > history. The era might not match up but as long as it makes Japan fun to play, why does it matter? Civ is not a 1:1 historical reference.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

As for historical context, fun > history.

Wrong comparison. It should be Fun > Bad History. Getting the history right almost always makes for a better game, with fewer 'unanticipated consequences' in the play of the game.

 

[rastak]

Wrong comparison. It should be Fun > Bad History. Getting the history right almost always makes for a better game, with fewer 'unanticipated consequences' in the play of the game.

Ok, fun wins again per your own statement.

 

[dagriggstar]

Yeah seems to me to likely be one of those immersion breaking mistakes....but meh, I'll just re-name them Zaibatsu's and be done with it

 

[Joketa]

You may have to think of them like Zaibatsu. There may have been talk of naming them as such, but they went with the more recognizable "electronic factory." Zaibatsu would have been better. Modern electronic factories that became an economic explosion in the post WWII era for Japan are just cultural extensions of Zaibatsu corporations that existed in Japan from the industrial age/Meiji Restoration. It's a missed educational opportunity as well a missed opportunity in cultural distinction. Maybe it's not too late for them to fix their mistake? It's just a name.

 

[j51]

Yeah seems to me to likely be one of those immersion breaking mistakes....but meh, I'll just re-name them Zaibatsu's and be done with it

Love it! Totally doing that too. Thanks!

 

[Atlas627]

You may have to think of them like Zaibatsu. There may have been talk of naming them as such, but they went with the more recognizable "electronic factory." Zaibatsu would have been better. Modern electronic factories that became an economic explosion in the post WWII era for Japan are just cultural extensions of Zaibatsu corporations that existed in Japan from the industrial age/Meiji Restoration. It's a missed educational opportunity as well a missed opportunity in cultural distinction. Maybe it's not too late for them to fix their mistake? It's just a name.

They'll probably explain this in the Civilopedia article, so I am not concerned.

On the other hand, I'd prefer them to be called Zaibatsus and explain how they evolved into electronics factories in the Civilopedia.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I'm not concerned as well, but surely Zaibatsu would be better. Developers still have enough time to change it.

 

[shaglio]

They said the Electronics Factory replaces the Factory, but did they say that it replaces it in the tech tree? Perhaps you'll build the Factory in the Industrial Era as normal, and have the Workshop and Factory in the District. Then, when you unlock the Electronics Factory later on and you build it, it replaces the existing Factory so that you now have a Workshop and Electronics Factory in the district. Sort of a building upgrade if you will.

 

[Mustakrakish]

They said the Electronics Factory replaces the Factory, but did they say that it replaces it in the tech tree? Perhaps you'll build the Factory in the Industrial Era as normal, and have the Workshop and Factory in the District. Then, when you unlock the Electronics Factory later on and you build it, it replaces the existing Factory so that you now have a Workshop and Electronics Factory in the district. Sort of a building upgrade if you will.

Think about it carefully. Do you actually think they would do something like that? Why? It WILL replace factory and that's the end of that.

"did they say that it replaces it in the tech tree?"

Do they ever?

 

[shaglio]

Think about it carefully. Do you actually think they would do something like that? Why? It WILL replace factory and that's the end of that.

"did they say that it replaces it in the tech tree?"

Do they ever?

Do they ever? I don't know, we're still learning about Civ 6. There is some speculation that UUs don't replace units, but rather are in addition to the other buildable units. It's entirely possible that you build a regular Factory early on and then upgrade it to an Electronics Factory later. It's not something they've ever done in a civ game to date, but they're doing a lot of "thinking outside the box" changes with Civ 6 so far. I was just trying to think outside the box as well. But I guess I just ignored your callous "that's the end of that" decree, didn't I?

 

[Mustakrakish]

Because that's how it is It's simple as that, really. It's just obvious it's a factory replacement and they sure as hell won't be adding any features / complications just for that one building. I just don't see any point to explain this simple fact. In V you get Gatling guns as soon as you enter industrial (while may not even have invented gunpowder) and your caravels and frigates have cannons, again, without gunpowder. That is just one example of Firaxis's immersion priority for you. But OK, in order not to come out as a arse, which I'm not trying to be, let's "rationalize" my position. That's the CivFanatics way after all.

You ask "did they say that it replaces it in the tech tree?" ...as if they ever say that when it in fact does, in other words basically always.

Now I do like the idea of UB's not being a replacement, but rather an addition, which will give a civ an option, two possibilities to fill the "X" slot in certain "X" district. In that case it would indeed be possible for the unique variant to come later.

BUT... The UB's would need to be VERY different from the buildings they repl... add to, to justify it being an "addition" rather than "replacement", otherwise (UB being just a buffed better version, which they always were) it will be redundant, useless and not at all fun mechanic.
I don't see that happening, seeing as electronics factory has buffed production and culture (bonus), in other words, better factory. Now of course we don't know yet how factories work, perhaps it is quite different to electronics factory, justifying building them instead in certain situations, but I doubt it.

The notion of upgrading a factory down the line (rather than additional building theory) I find unlikely too. Why? One building? Just for Japan? Is it upgraded automatically or do you need to use money / production time? I hope automatically, but... why? Why would they bother? What would it bring in terms of a working mechanic? Immersion for us? We all know that's not even slightly good enough for Firaxis to justify it. Funnily enough contrary to your thinking, I think that if that was the case, they WOULD actually mention the tech tree. Probably not explaining it well, confusing us even more, but nevertheless something along the lines of it being available at electronics, but never mentioning that a factory is available earlier.

In the end, I find the idea that they'll just rename it at some point much more plausible.

 

[Big J Money]

For me the upgrades in Civ5 were too frequent and on most speeds, you were unable to taste each unit.

I told you that licking the screen doesn't help, but you wouldn't listen.

 

[lindsay40k]

Ideally, a Zaibatsu would be a Factory with a Wealth multiplier, that gains its Cultural yield/multiplier with Computers (or some such).

 

[bcaiko]

Yeah, I have to agree that the Electronics Factory as a unique building come off as odd for several reasons.

1. It doesn't seem unique enough to Japan. The fact that they used an English name for the unique also adds to this. Yes, Japan has a history with electronics, but most nations have since had electronics factories. Even if Japan got there first, nobody thinks of Electronics Factories as being a Japanese thing.

2. If it simply replaces the regular factory, it will be jarringly early in the tech tree. And if it comes later down the tech tree than the factory it eliminates, that's almost a unique drawback.

3. Late uniques are almost always terrible because of the "snowball" effect. Early and mid-game uniques are almost always preferable because they allow the player to establish themselves, create increasing returns on the investment, and create inevitability. To me, it sounds like the Electronic Factory doesn't create enough benefit to overcome the value of a unique that will come much earlier for other civilizations. I suppose only time will tell.

However, another alternative is that Japan unlocks regular factories in the industrial era, and they all transform into electronics factories in when the appropriate tech is discovered later.

Perhaps you'll build the Factory in the Industrial Era as normal, and have the Workshop and Factory in the District. Then, when you unlock the Electronics Factory later on and you build it, it replaces the existing Factory so that you now have a Workshop and Electronics Factory in the district. Sort of a building upgrade if you will.

This is true. The video says it "replaces" the Factory, which could possibly means a regular Factory upgrades into an Electronics Factory if upgrading is a mechanic in Civ6.

I'm not saying I like it as an idea - but I admit it's a possibility.

Wrong comparison. It should be Fun > Bad History. Getting the history right almost always makes for a better game, with fewer 'unanticipated consequences' in the play of the game.

I listen to a weekly game design podcast, and the well-respected designer is always saying mechanics trump flavor. But, he continues - whenever you can, you should try and piggyback on flavor to help carry your mechanics.

Still, in the end a little bit of historical wonkiness is preferable to imbalanced gameplay.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I listen to a weekly game design podcast, and the well-respected designer is always saying mechanics trump flavor. But, he continues - whenever you can, you should try and piggyback on flavor to help carry your mechanics.

Still, in the end a little bit of historical wonkiness is preferable to imbalanced gameplay.

I used to attend the Gaming Artist's and Manufacturer's convention, ORIGINS, in Ohio every year, as part of the 'War College' lecturing on the real history behind the games - since even fantasy games are almost always based on medieval military history, badly interpreted. Had lots of discussions at the bar with game designers in all fields from card games to board games to miniatures to electronic, and more than once we came around to the conclusion that many, many problems in game design stem from not knowing what the actual historical answer to the problem was, and trying to 'wing it' based on partial knowledge or emphasis on 'mechanics' without the Background.

- And yes, I have played games that were All History and no emphasis or thought given to Game Mechanics at all, but I don't call those games, they're more like Punishment For Your Sins or A Lesson In Mind-Numbing Tedium. Those, at least, Civilization has never been - although some of the Historical Boners buried in the game make me cringe, I still play it obsessively!