Elves and conquesting

[psychodation]

i havent found a thread for this paticular question (maybe it was the keywords):

how do you conquest cities with both elfish civs?

as they can build no siege, how to do it? i just can get a hang on this, and i think maybe there are some other people out there who dont know how to conquest in early/midgame either.

i will just write what i have tried so far:

Ljosalfar: Gilden Silveric obviously is the only option early on. but against culture-heavy cities, he doesnt stand a chance. the best way (which doesnt mean it works) are "early" mages and swordsmen. with this i keep failing countering attacks by other civs. i.e. it takes forever to battle them, and at some point another neighbour just takes advatage of it and attacks. meaning trouble of course.

Svartalfar: they are a bit easier, as hunters attack with +1, pretty much ignoring the -25% city attack. on the other hand i have no hero, and shadowwalk (mages again) seems to just ignore just ppalisades and city walls, not the cultural (is it the buildings, the , or what?) defence bonus?



i really would like to play the elves, not only dwarves time and again, but how?
suggestions welcomed...

 

[popejubal]

1) Build Mages

2) Build Pact of the Nilhorn

3) Build Mages

4) get Swordsmen or Champions and attack someone who is really REALLY far behind.

5) Build Mages.

#2 is the one you can do earliest, but the odd numbered ones are the most reliable.


3 Death Mana = Strength 6 Wraiths that you can summon turn after turn after turn and you don't need to spend any promotions on the Wraiths.

1 Fire mana = 2 promotions spent on Fireball to let you knock down the defensive bonus.

 

[psychodation]

stooges? i never seem to get on with them well they seem to hate me: "96,5%? crap, i prefer to die..." hm. nevertheless.

so its really all about the mages. never thought elves would have to rely on mage-heavy armies... wwtd (what would tolkien do)?

and yes, death mana. first of all: how the heck should i gather 4 manas early on? and regarding death mana: i try NOT to get attacked from two sides, therefore i try to avoid death mana... maelstrom is fine too

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I would also like to add Build Mages...
In addition, recon units, although they get -25% when attacking cities, are really strong and can be used for this purpose, since they are fast, and can caught an opponent unprepared.
If you go FoL, and you should, Fawns and Satyrs can also do the trick, if you have them in right numbers.
Priests are also very useful for this purpose.
And, of course, you should never forget Build Mages.
If you go Order, later in the game, the Order's Priests and crusaders can also do the trick, supported by some FoL priests kept from previously, although I tend to never change FoL and GoN when playing elves(Ljosalfar only, so far)
And, make sure you build mages.
Usually, I have cultural advandages an Ljosalfar against the other civs, and pillaging improvements in enemy terriotory helps to ring riots(thus losing the cultural advandage).

This, and, of course, remember to build mages

EDIT: Well, not death mana. FIRE mana. And no heavily, just 4-5 should be enough. Priests and religion units can do the rest. Tigers and Treants are quite useful, obviously.
To tell the truth, I do not build any mages with Ljosalfar. I just use the summons and basically the rest of the units to do the work..It works fine for me. Except from Thessa, because she is Arcane and I build 4-5 mages with her.

 

[ICanHasName?]

Elf civilizations are more defensive. If you do want to conquer then its either fire mages, hill giants or just pitch a whole bunch of swordsmen into the city.

 

[Sephi]

Just spam some horsemen and you can rule the world. Give some of them flanking and others combat+shock/cover and you should be fine. One of the elven leaders is defensive+raider, so he is nearly as good as Tasunke .

 

[JonathanStrange]

I play the Ljosalfar at Deity/Immortal often, so I have some idea of the Elves conquest abilities - esp. against cities. Frankly, they're far better at defense than offense, relatively weak in the early stages, stronger in the middle game, and if they survive, powerful endgame players.

Early game: Conquest here is possible mostly because while the Elves are weak, so are their enemies. Gilden's at his best here, esp. if you can get Orthus' Axe and have Horseriding (he needs the Mobility promotion to attack twice.) He can take cities (re: culture defense? at this stage? not a problem.) but early on the Elves' dilemma is that the units they have most access to have negative city attack modifiers (Fauns/Hunters) or aren't particularly strong offensively (Warriors/Archers). Promotions like Woodsman I or Combat or Shock help here.

Middle Game: For city attack, Elves need mana and magic users by this stage. Mages with access to Fire mana can provide the city bombardment needed (Level II Fireballs), mages with Air mana - which, btw, the Ljosalfar palace provides - can also provide similar service (Level II Maelstrom). City attacking can be helped if the Elves build The Pact of the Nilhorn giving them three hill giants able to bombard cities. As I use Ljosalfar archers, I buff up their already +1 strength with Enchantment mana (Level II Flaming Arrows). By now the Elves have access to swordsmen who obviously are better city attackers (esp. if they have City Attacker promotions) than archers but frankly, your enemy probably matches you here, as well as matching your horsemen.

Late Middle Game: City attacking doesn't become easier because everyone else is stronger too, but probably if you're thinking of attacking it's because you've plenty of magic users supported/defended by magic-buffed champions/longbowmen/etc. Druidsare not esp. great city attackers, but their Entanglement spell can keep an enemy stack immobile and unable to reinforce a besiege city. Priests, not esp. good city attackers, but useful for Medic I, II and cheap summoned tiger units to distract. Flurry archers with Blitz are powerful, if you can get them. Satyrs could be good city attackers even though they have the negative city attack modifier - but Satyrs are so damn expensive to research and upgrade to that I'd think twice about non-forest assaults.

Endgame: City attacking, if it's still an option at all, is about the same as mid-game. The Ljosalfars, hopefully, have other heroes like Yvain or Kythiel by now to replace Gilden who probably fell long ago. Yvain's certainly strong enough to help crush city defenders though one hates to risk him this way. Kythiel's a horse archer with an incredible withdraw ability so one could use him to soften up city defenders. I've never found the Fyrdwell deer archers particularly useful but again, they withdraw well so again: soften up city defenders. (Fyrdwell are awesomely potent raiders and fantastic fast defenders though).

To summarize: IMO, for city attacking, Gilden's necessary and awesome early/mid game. magic users with Fire and Air mana essential (Elemental mana optional) mid/late, all of whom need plenty of support from Melee/Archer/Other troops for the actual grinding down of the enemy.

Remember though, I personally don't find the Ljosalfar's strengths to be as attackers though they can do it. (I didn't mention treants, or the offensive use of March of the Trees worldspell, or using captured troops (from the Druids' Command promotion) and things like that 'cause they're either special cases or hard to base a strategy on).

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Remember though, I personally don't find the Ljosalfar's strengths to be as attackers though they can do it. (I didn't mention treants, or the offensive use of March of the Trees worldspell, or using captured troops (from the Druids' Command promotion) and things like that 'cause they're either special cases or hard to base a strategy on).

Very nice post. However, Treants are not special cases, since FoL high priests can summon permanent Treants on any AF terrain..So, they do count for Late mid game Strategies, combined with tigers. And, I have to say, Druids with a few combat promotions are siege machines. For me, at least. I use to soften the defenders with tigers/recon/melee/whatever, and then, finish them off with Druids. And, their entangle is nice to avoid counterattacks..as you already said, of course.

But, again, this is mostly a Deity post you have compiled here, and I haven't, yet, started a game in Deity. The strategies are completely different according to the Leader/Religion you choose to go with, though, and Ljosalfar/Svaltarfar strategies differ, also.

 

[heisenberg]

Fawns/Satyrs do not have negative city attack modifiers iirc, they are just the same str as a swordsman, but having a way higher hammer cost, so spamming lots of them simply to attack cities if you don't have bronze working is quite out of the question.

As for late-game offenses, the Baron isn't really an elven-only unit, but with focused research down the recon path you should be able to snag him before others.

Assassins aren't too far down the recon line too, for mid-game city assaults you could always use your pretty decent elven productivity (2nd only to perhaps the Khaz) to churn out sacrificial swordsmen to smash against cities before cleaning up the weakened using more highly promoted assassins before they heal back the next turn.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Fawns/Satyrs do not have negative city attack modifiers iirc, they are just the same str as a swordsman, but having a way higher hammer cost, so spamming lots of them simply to attack cities if you don't have bronze working is quite out of the question.

As for late-game offenses, the Baron isn't really an elven-only unit, but with focused research down the recon path you should be able to snag him before others.

Assassins aren't too far down the recon line too, for mid-game city assaults you could always use your pretty decent elven productivity (2nd only to perhaps the Khaz) to churn out sacrificial swordsmen to smash against cities before cleaning up the weakened using more highly promoted assassins before they heal back the next turn.

You're correct, fawns/satyrs do not have a negative city attack, I lumped them in with their fellow recon units like Hunters, Assassins, Rangers, Beastmasters who have something like a range of -20% and -50% city attack modifers.

I'm not too impressed with Ljosalfar recon line in general but particularly for city attacking, it's expensive and relatively ineffective. The extra 50% cost for strength 4 fawns, the recon lines' inability to pillage, the negative city attack modifiers, the Satyrs cost in dead fawns and - I use 'em, like 'em, they have their uses, but they're not what first pop into my mind as the go-to units for city attacking.

Yes, once Elven cities get their production ramped (like any civ, I'd say) you can explore all sorts of city attack combos, some more effective than others.

(BTW, I'm not denying the potential usefulness of any Elven unit, given the right circumstances, numbers, situation, opponent, etc., I'm just talking focusing on City Attacking.)

 

[JonathanStrange]

Very nice post. However, Treants are not special cases, since FoL high priests can summon permanent Treants on any AF terrain..So, they do count for Late mid game Strategies, combined with tigers. And, I have to say, Druids with a few combat promotions are siege machines. For me, at least. I use to soften the defenders with tigers/recon/melee/whatever, and then, finish them off with Druids. And, their entangle is nice to avoid counterattacks..as you already said, of course.

But, again, this is mostly a Deity post you have compiled here, and I haven't, yet, started a game in Deity. The strategies are completely different according to the Leader/Religion you choose to go with, though, and Ljosalfar/Svaltarfar strategies differ, also.

You're right. Plus, Yvain can summon a permanent treant too. Why did I feel they're special cases? 'Cause as awesome as an early permanent treant would be, by mid/late game, they've become just another unit whereas your stacks o' doom will be mostly manned with champions, mages, longbowmen, etc. And yeah, I think I didn't stress Druids as much as I actually use them quite a bit.

 

[psychodation]

the treants would be quite useful... 50 turns earlier or so. by the time you can summon them they are about as useful as the tigers earlier on.

i too think of the elves more as a defender civ, but last time i got crushed between keelyn and the calabim, with no room for more cities ans keelyns cities already at +90 defense, calabim - with still room to expand, as i saw thereafter - always on the verge of war...

thats how i came up with it.

btw: anybody knows the exact defintion of shadow II: shadowwalk? is it only city walls, or also the cultural thing?

 

[Ribusprissin]

Don't fire mages risk setting the forest on fire? I know pyre zombies and citadels of light cause fires, and it seems like elves would be fairly averse to having their entire landscape reset to burned/new forests.

 

[psychodation]

afaik fireballs dont have that risk. and even if:make sure to have a mage with spring-promo. no prob.

 

[heisenberg]

Fireballs do not create "fires" in forests (or rather smoke). Blaze does, but why would you be casting it on your own forests?
Besides, Ancient Forests are pretty resistant to catching fire(smoke), and you have a couple of turns to get a water I adept to cast spring near it to remove the smoking tile before it actually catches fire. Problem solved

edit: =P pyscho beat me to posting a reply

 

[odalrick]

Also, I think forests with an improvement are immune to fire, because smoke is an improvement.

I could be wrong though.

 

[Lone Wolf]

So, if you want to play a more conquest-oriented Ljosafar, you'd better play Thessa, as her Arcane trait makes Mages more useful.

 

[psychodation]

THessa or Amelanchier I would say. The mages promotion is nice, but commando is also an argument imho. Fireballs are already able to move 2 (-3?) tiles, so you can speed up conquest to some kinda blitzkrieg for the first 2-4 cities (depending on border lines obviously), thus damaging the enemies ability to supply fresh troops dramatically - not to mention homeland as it is easier to fight of any backlash or flank attack.

 

[Sephi]

In my opinion it is
1. Amelanchier (best in early conquest+raider is nice)
2. Faeryl (raider+well promoted hunters and late game arcane)
3. Arendel (priests come much earlier than mages and ritualists+FoL Priests are powerful)
4. Thessa (arcane is nice to get archmages, so she is really good late game)

 

[Verily]

So, if you want to play a more conquest-oriented Ljosafar, you'd better play Thessa, as her Arcane trait makes Mages more useful.

There's always the (rather exploitive) strategy for Arendel (and any Spiritual leader) of building Savants and upgrading them to Mages so they keep Potency. Tough with the Ljosalfar, though; you'll want Apprenticeship, Dies Diei and some Altar pieces to get them close to or at 10 XP when built. (For Varn Gosam this is much easier/fits better with the overall strategy.)

But, yes, Thessa is IMO the best leader for Ljosalfar warring. Amelanchier's traits would lend themselves to war, but his traits are progressively less useful as the game moves along because cities become simply impossible to besiege. Frankly, I'd rather have Arendel's hordes of Tigers than Amelanchier's Commando units by the mid-game.