Embassy to the Amazons

[TyBoy]

Backstabs are a tricky thing in a game like this. These teams are like large ships, it's very difficult to get them turned around and a good backstab usually requires taking advantage of a fairly small window to really be effective.

I'm just spitballing here, but to that end I think it might be wise to set up a plan to implement backstabs on fairly short notice. It's not something to discuss in this thread, but it is a thought.

 

[Provolution]

I think we need to think very very carefully before we answer a clear cut answer on the alliance proposal, especially as we know they have Alphabet already, which explains why Alphabet was shortened for our side.

What is important now, is that an alliance with Maverick, including religion, will provide us an added gold per turn for each city with Buddhism after we get the religious wonder, if we trade missionaries.
They also got metal casting, and we may cut a deal for Colossus, which also fits well for our Cothons.

 

[cav scout]

With this new development I think we really need to act now. Have we discussed the ETTT enough to get an up/down vote on it?

I sent Amazons a pm saying we will get them a letter shortly.

 

[Earthling]

I vote yes for the ETTT, and yes for a 4-team alliance.

I would tell AMAZONs that CDZ was the team we met earliest on, and propose in this very letter they would be good allies for us, and for the entire ETTT group, that we should expand it to a four team alliance.

I'm a little surprised if Sirius already has Alphabet, however if anyone does by GDP it's probably them; they probably had fish and gems or something so they got commerce off of all tiles, and we do know after all that they avoided religious techs.

It is possible though that they'd have Alphabet before we meet them, before we do definitely, and hence I would want to avoid duplicating techs.

With a tech treaty we inevitably run into a situation where one team expects to be given a substantial number of free beakers through a lopsided trade or a tech gift and the other side is reluctant to do so either because they feel they gained the advantage through superior play or by prioritizing tech while the other team got a different benefit. The ETTT addresses that with one line that basically says, "suck it up, give them the tech." That already starts to rub me the wrong way now. I think it's really going to rub people the wrong way once the situation arises. Especially in the latter case where what's fair and what the treaty states are very different.

When you think about it, dealing with that situation is the only important function of a tech treaty. The exclusivity aspect virtually takes care of itself with roughly equal research rates and it is in nobodies interest to research the same things as other people. I don't think the ETTT pays sufficient attention to this. Or perhaps more accurately, it doesn't resolve the situation the way I would like.

I'm sorry, and for what it's worth, I agree too, but there's only one answer: Some stupid teams voted to have tech trading on, so tech trading is on. Yes, the alliance won't really be "fair" and yes, it will make forming new alliances and backstabbing harder. And people on every team will complain and we'll read about it on every team's forums at the end.

So instead, rather than worry about fairness in trade and beakers and work (cause some lazier team may also do very little effort in writing messages, treaties, etc and just sign on, of course), we go with the alliance for its main purpose - slowly leave behind and rule out excluded teams from ever becoming a force. The game would be won by getting another team to like us in the end rather than any great civ-game decision making, so instead, we maybe work on a secret agreement, say with AMAZONs, where we're both having fun with the quirks and humor of our respective civs and we appreciate having the other team as a partner. But for now 4 teams can effectively neutralize the other two.


As cav_scout had asked, I do like the last message overall, and don't have too many edits I would make, but while I have time might as well say - In our description of other teams, I'd add some things emphasizing the Mavericks being heathens and offending the gods, describe Colossus in these terms too perhaps. And I'd not really want to imply we can't trust or don't know what CDZ are up to, if we want them as the fourth member we need to sell AMAZONs on that, so again perhaps saying we have known them for some time (well, hundreds of years in game-years ) and hope to keep working closely in the future is a start - that we could find them teching something useful too for the ETTT.

 

[Earthling]

Some thoughts on the message, I figured I might as well. Also, we need to check some things - what techs AMAZONs have traded for exactly to start, since they just traded with Sirius (note this should also be obvious to all teams, for the record)

Dear Amazons,

Your last letter was extremely well recieved, it was just what we were hoping to hear. The ETTT is a magnificient idea and we are IN!

We spent time fretting over some concerns we are already glad to see quelled; we think perhaps it is best to leave India and their Metal Casting be as we might not be able to trade with them. It is great news that Sirius have Alphabet and we would switch to Mathematics immediately.

About the map: your analysis is correct, the map is star shaped with the 6 teams spaced around it in the order you described. Yes there does seem to be water channels that lead to a desert hub at the center of the star.

We also have a 2nd boat that is on the other edge of Merlot territory and will probably be meeting yours shortly. It seems that our two teams are ahead of the others as far as exploring.

About the Mavericks: They got the Oracle and used it to get Metal Casting. The heathens have also developed other faiths of Hinduism and Judaism, and continue to affront the Gods with their dreams of statues and wonders. We think they might be working the center of the tech tree in their misguided efforts, but cannot be sure, and once as we commit to friendship with you they may catch on and be mum with us all.

About CDZ: The Viking civilizations are close neighbors of ours and from hundreds of years ago our peoples have lived in peace and cooperation. We would hope you would welcome them as a fourth member of the alliance. In the short term, they may perhaps have Iron Working available to trade soon, but are not entirely sure about what techs may be duplicated.

Finally, about the ETTT: We think getting 4 teams should be the goal. And based on the layout of the map and the positions of the teams we have an idea of which 4 teams those should be-


Our rationale is as follow:

1. All members of the alliance will have a friendly neighbor and a non-alliance neighbor. There is a nice symmetry that keeps things balanced between alliance members.

2. Merlot and Mavericks both have skilled players and it would be good to remove those teams first.

3. Merlot and Mavericks will be isolated from each other and will have a hard time cooperating. When there is war they will have to fight on two fronts, making them fall that much easier.

4. The map will be balanced for the 4 remaining alliance members moving into the next phase of the game.

This is just some preliminary thinking on our parts of course. But if you guys think this is a good idea then you might consider holding back on sharing the ETTT with Merlot and Mavs for a bit.

Whicever teams we exclude, it would best to keep them in the dark about the ETTT for as long as possible. We could get one good round of trades in with the unfortunate teams initially (i.e. MC from Mavs) while the ETTT is still a secret. Then when the "jig was up" we would cut them off and they would find themselves without trading partners.

Cav Scout
Ambassador
Team Quatronia

Changed/added parts in bold, of course don't have to be exactly how I put them or even if we don't approve of those statements that's fine, just the additional/changed info I would hope to get across.

 

[cav scout]

Some further refinements:

Dear Amazons,

Your last letter was extremely well recieved, it was just what we were hoping to hear. The ETTT is a magnificient idea and we are IN!

We spent time fretting over some concerns we are already glad to see quelled. It is great news that Sirius have Alphabet and we would switch to Mathematics immediately.

About the map: your analysis is correct, the map is star shaped with the 6 teams spaced around it in the order you described. Yes there does seem to be water channels that lead to a desert hub at the center of the star.

We also have a 2nd boat that is on the other edge of Merlot territory and will probably be meeting yours shortly. It seems that our two teams are ahead of the others as far as exploring.

About the Mavericks: They got the Oracle and used it to get Metal Casting. The heathens have also developed other faiths of Hinduism and Judaism, and continue to affront the Gods with their dreams of statues and wonders. We think they might be working the center of the tech tree in their misguided efforts, but cannot be sure, and once as we commit to friendship with you they may catch on and be mum with us all.

About CDZ: The Viking civilizations are close neighbors of ours and from hundreds of years ago our peoples have lived in peace and cooperation. We would hope you would welcome them as a fourth member of the alliance. We think they would be open to working a beneficial tech path for the alliance like Iron Working.

About Merlot: We made contact with one of their boats not too long ago but they don't seem very talkative. Perhaps their internal team dynamic makes it hard for them to communicate... or maybe they are just drinking lots of wine...

Finally, about the ETTT: We think getting 4 teams should be the goal. And based on the layout of the map and the positions of the teams we have an idea of which 4 teams those should be-

Our rationale is as follow:

1. All members of the alliance will have a friendly neighbor and a non-alliance neighbor. There is a nice symmetry that keeps things balanced between alliance members.

2. Merlot and Mavericks both have skilled players and it would be good to remove those teams first.

3. Merlot and Mavericks will be isolated from each other and will have a hard time cooperating. When there is war they will have to fight on two fronts, making them fall that much easier.

4. The map will be balanced for the 4 remaining alliance members moving into the next phase of the game.

This is just some preliminary thinking on our parts of course. The important thing is choosing the right fourth partner. But if you guys think this is a good idea that should be explored some more then you might consider holding back on sharing the ETTT with Merlot and Mavs for a bit.

Whicever teams we exclude, it would best to keep them in the dark about the ETTT for as long as possible. This might mean holding off on internal trades to avoid revealing our level of cooperation. We could even get one good round of trades in with the unfortunate teams initially (i.e. MC from Mavs) while the ETTT is still a secret. Then when the "jig was up" we would cut them off and they would find themselves without trading partners.

Cav Scout
Ambassador
Team Quatronia

I'm worried that we are going a bit over the top in painting the Mavs as villains. As much as amazons are a fun team we are already past the rollplay stage and into the brass tacks.

I also don't want to overstate our relationship with CDZ. Let's face it, we haven't heard back from these guys yet! Yes we want them as allies and yes we can probably compel them to join us with an "offer they can't refuse." But lets not make it sound like we are closer than we really are, this can turn around to bite us.

Who knows, maybe CDZ turns out to be obstinate and we have the Mavs join the ETTT instead. (Definitely don't want Merlot because then we would be flanked by two hostile teams)

 

[cav scout]

Got this back from SilentConfusion:

Hey just wanted to let you know that we are still drafting a reply for the ETTT proposal. I can tell you unofficially that we are pretty stoked! We appreciate your patience and will get you an official response shortly. And if possible we would like you to hold off on revealing the ETTT to the Mavericks and Merlot until you hear from us.

Cav Scout

Unofficially, we are very glad to hear that. That kind of news is easier to wait for, I assure you. And thank you for the message. Silence can make you doubt even things you don't have reason to doubt, especially in the very early game. So long as your reply is indeed "coming shortly" we are happy to wait for it and not say anything to the Mavs (whom we haven't met yet) or to Merlot (who hasn't yet replied to our introductory message).

SilentConfusion

 

[CharlemagneXLII]

I think it's good to send, though we need more consensus first. Also, don't forget we can use a lopsided deal to our advantage if we're the ones behind in science.

 

[cav scout]

It's been several days and we have now run out of time to decide on this.

Cav Scout,

I said that we would wait for your response in my last message, and I wish that we had time to wait for you to finish drafting whatever lengthy reply you have been working on. However, the team has decided that we can't wait much longer before we have to offer this deal to Team Merlot. We've sent an email to your Gmail account with more details.

I, personally, would prefer to work with you, so I want to tell you that sending an unpolished letter is preferable to sending a late letter.

I am available via messenger, as well, if you have any concerns that I can address. Feel free to add me for future contacts and just send me a PM if you don't see me online.

My contact info:
Skype username: silentconfusion
MSM username: silentconfusion@hotmail.com

SilentConfusion, AMAZON diplomat

To the Q Continuum:


I know I told you that we would wait for your reply to our ETTT, however, the decision in this matter has been taken out of my hands because the team has decided to offer membership in the Alliance to Merlot as soon as the game restarts, if we have not gotten an acceptance from you before then. The general feeling is that we would prefer to work with you, but that we have to act quickly. If you decide ultimately to sign the ETTT and join our Tech Alliance, we would suggest that our two nations immediately draft a Classified Addendum to the treaty, to give our two nations additional security. The terms of the Addendum will, of course, be negotiated between us, but among the terms could be: 1.) a provision that we should only develop espionage towards each other to read each others demographics and/or technology research, and 2.) that the other alliance members should not know of the existence of this separate treaty.


Let me assure you that I am very much hoping to work with you in the Alliance and begin trading technologies immediately and building a strong bond between our nations, however, time is of the essence and we all need to act quickly if we are to take advantage of this opportunity.


We hope very much to hear from you soon.



SilentConfusion, AMAZON diplomat

Based on the sentiments expressed so far I believe a majority of the team is in favor of joining the ETTT. I plan on sending the latest draft above in 4 hours unless someone objects.

 

[CharlemagneXLII]

Send it as is. This should explain the delay. They've done a good job of driving diplomacy here, they've backed us into a corner (they could be bluffing about Merlot, but we can't know that). We can draft amendments later as we need. You should probably add a request that we be given alphabet so we can trade with the other teams. Also, make sure 4 hours isn't too long, send earlier if you must.

 

[Earthling]

Send it - I too approved already, even the changes I asked for weren't essential, but I liked what you did and also what you said about MERLOT, nice work again. Also, our poll on accepting the ETTT already has assent from several it seems, and I think it's unlikely it would entirely outvoted as team members may or may not trickle in over an unspecified amount of time.

 

[cav scout]

Ok, just sent it.

 

[galdarian]

Send it as it is now. An imperfect letter at this stage would be better than no letter.

 

[galdarian]

We should really be proactive about the fact that we've rejected their tech trade. Is it possible to send a brief polite message to them and explain that the trade was declined on the basis the new turnplayer is not 100% across the forum news; or words to that effect.

 

[cav scout]

New message from the Amazons:

Greetings to The Continuum,

We were very happy to get your acceptance to our proposed Tech Alliance. We are also glad to hear that you have a good relationship with CDZ and might be able to get them to join our Alliance. How much do you know about them, and how likely do you think it is that we could get them to join? Do you know if they have already established any serious relations with House Merlot?

It does look like our two civilizations have had the same idea about the value of exploration. Have the Mavericks and House Merlot have met each other? Do you know the approximate locations of the other teams work boats? We haven't met one from the Mavs, CDZ, or Merlot, so they must not have sent any our way.

Regarding the four-way Alliance that you propose, we had also come up with that thought while waiting to hear back from you. We are happy to hear that it is a possibility. We think it is a good set-up for all of the reasons you mentioned. Our only concern is if CDZ and Merlot have already set up somewhat firm relations. In that case we might have to accept the Mavs instead, although our preference would be CDZ.

We want to share our current tech plans so that we can make our Alliance-wide tech plan as efficient as possible. We already have knowledge of the following technologies: All first tier techs (Fishing, The Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism, and Mining), all of the second tier techs except for Meditation, along with Writing and Alphabet. Sirius is currently researching Mathematics, and were planning to tech Currency after that. We are half-way through Monotheism on our way to Monarchy. We are thinking of researching Priesthood before finishing Monotheism now that we lost the religion in case an Alliance team needs it as an optional prerequisite for another tech (Currency or Code of Laws).

We wonder if keeping the Alliance secret to attempt one round of tech trades with the "Outsiders" is really a good idea. We know that the prospect of attaining a tech like Metal Casting in a trade sounds good, but we'd have to give them technologies back, and if we put together a 4-Team Alliance, it doesn't seem a good idea to give them any techs at all. With four of us teching we can have Metal Casting and many other techs before too long, without having to give them anything. They cannot keep up with us if we don't help them, especially if it takes them a little while to meet each other and organize a tech treaty. We think it's probably wisest if we research Metal Casting within the Alliance. If we don't trade with them at all, they will quickly fall behind, even with an Oracled tech and some wonders. With 4 members in our Exclusive Tech-Trading Alliance (ETTA) our beakers are effectively worth 4 times as much as normal beakers, whereas even if Merlot and Mavs band together immediately, they're beakers are only worth half what ours are worth. Therefore for a trade to be reasonable for us they'd have to give us twice the beakers that we're giving them, and I don't think they're going to want to do that. If we trade them even beakers they get the better deal.

We think this day will prove to be an important date in history. We look forward to working closely with you in the coming years.

May you continue to have long lifetimes and flourish.

SilentConfusion, AMAZON diplomat

 

[cav scout]

Now that we are in the ETTT I was wondering if the team would authorize me to conduct msn chats with the Amazons? I will post all logs of course.

 

[CharlemagneXLII]

In order to milk techs off of other civs we need to wait about 14 turns at least before getting alphabet so that it's believable, so I think Amazon's suggestion is a good one- we don't have to wait for alpha or any other trades from the ETTT, and we'll get metal casting soon enough anyways. Let's just accept alphabet and send it off to CDZ.

 

[Earthling]

I would be ok with accepting the trade and working to get CDZ in right away - I agree it might not be that necessary to wait and scam Mavericks if we do have four teams all ready to work together and get started now.

Teching Math would be great for us but it seems Sirius already has that, however we could also feasibly split off to Iron Working or even something like Code of Laws or Aesthetics (if we put a turn in IW, maybe that is a good possibility, don't know what CDZ is doing). We could also propose that we tech Calendar right after Sirius gets Math, as they intend for Currency, make a very solid effort that way there.

I am also fine with endorsing MSN chats with players they send forward who are interested, from the AMAZONs - it could help keep things clear.

Very glad about the alliance in general though, it is a glorious day (despite stinking loss to Ghana )

 

[galdarian]

So, to clarify: If i am offered any techs in game from the ETTT teams I should accept and counter offer?

 

[Earthling]

Well, do you approve of that yourself? With the current developments, I approve; looks like Charlemagne did, but we don't want to be too hasty.

Certainly if we are accepting trades, the actual trade for Alphabet itself should come early - we're not in dire need of stuff like Polytheism, and Alpha allows us to see for sure what's up with everyone.

But yes, this seems like the best way to get things going, and enables us to be sure we can trade with CDZ and get them in on the alliance too.