Embassy to the Amazons

[CharlemagneXLII]

I don't forsee this as being a problem, unless CDZ wants it (that could be why they went after Divine Right).

 

[Caledorn]

We have received this communique via PM today:

proposed ban on nukes
Greetings, allies!

Team Amazon according to its peaceful and just nature would like to make a consultation with you about a possible resolution for banning the nukes from this game trough official UN vote.

We would like all of us to avoid Fission technology giving access to building Manhattan project and nukes right after, until the UN is built and a resolution for ban on the nukes is voted and passed. Once we have your agreement in principle on this, we will avoid it till the UN vote.

Having seen too much of a violence, death and smoldering ruins in this game, I am humbly sending you this request looking forward for a peaceful future with bright skies and no nuclear mushrooms on the horizon.



General 2metraninja of the Amazons

I have to admit that I'm opposed to barring Fission as a valid tech goal (Due to the Nuclear Power Plants), but I think banning the Manhattan Project is acceptable. We need to give them a response to this as soon as possible, so I hope I can get some voiceins here. Refusing the deal completely may be our ticket to a quick boot from the ETTT if all the other 3 teams agree to it (Which is highly likely they do).

 

[CharlemagneXLII]

We need to accept this but be able to break it covertly if necessary- we're so far behind a surprise nuke could be our best option. I agree with lobbying to keep fission as a valid tech path- we can use the fact they have espy on us as a way of verifying our honesty (though we intend to fix that).

 

[whb]

If it were me, I'd explicitly mention this somehow:

I set our new tech goal to be Fission, asking Sommerswerd who happened to be in game while I was there what the most sensible research goal would currently be according to the other ETTT member goals. 15 turns for that with the current sliders (40% tech).

It would be a bit ridiculous if Amazon suggested we researched Fission and then attempted to boot us out of the ETTT for doing so.

I think it might be important to canvas the two other teams politely too. Perhaps:

"Hi, Sommerswerd of the Amazons had suggested (in in-game chat) we research Fission next as the most sensible next tech according to everyone's ETTT goals, but we've since been contacted by 2metraninja (also of the Amazons) suggesting that actually they are nervous about our researching now it as they don't want nukes getting into the game. Can we get a sense of what your views are on researching Fission as part of the ETTT? (I think other teams would see via espy if we started building Manhattan, so we're the least able to run any secret arms program!) Obviously if there's widespread concern we'll look at something else instead."

But maybe better worded.


Likewise I'd send one back to 2metraninja saying something of the lines of

"Hi, Somerswerd had suggested Fission as the most sensible next tech to advance the goals of the ETTT, when we chatted to him in-game. Sorry to hear your team was worried we might be have picked it to get Manhattan or nukes. Given you've got espy on us and could see if we were building Manhattan anyway, what do you reckon to an agreement in the ETTT to just ban building the wonder rather than the tech (we'd rather like the power plants)?"

Again I'm sure others are much better at wording than me.

I wouldn't put it past Somerswerd to be trying to engineer this as a way of kicking a team out of the ETTT (by prompting a team to pick fission, and then telling the other teams 'be afraid of them, they're researching fission'). He's rather explicit that trying to get dogpile alliances is the only way he knows to play.

 

[Caledorn]

I wrote this to Sommerswerd personally, and will await his response before answering 2metra:

Hey Sommers

I am a bit confused at the moment because of the message 2metraninja has sent out to all the members of the ETTT proposing a ban on researching Fission (which I set our current research goal to after our last ingame chat 2 turns ago) until we have the UN.

Wouldn't it be more sensible to set the bar on building the Manhattan Project rather than researching Fission? The Nuclear Power Plants are very sweet, and I have calculated with using them as a part of the current Q strategy.

We will (or would.. if this goes through with a vote of 3-1 we have no real power to actually say no to this suggestion) of course share Fission with everyone inside the ETTT, and we would also agree to not building the Manhattan Project until the UN has been built and a ban on nukes can be proposed. I doubt anyone really considers military domination a viable strategy for winning this game now, as Team Sirius has been heavily damaged in the former war, Team CDZ is rather quietly expanding their economy and hammer situation, and us in Team Q are trying to get up to speed on the economy and hammer situation too. It is rather obvious that the team who would benefit the most from a ban on nukes is Team Amazon as you are the ones who have the most to lose from anyone building and using them. But even if someone were to build and use them you would have a military power that is more or less unstoppable - even in a situation where all other three teams ganged up on you (a situation I cannot see coming to be honest).

If the ban on researching Fission goes through for all ETTT members, we will have wasted about 15 turns of research now because our former goal was Rocketry, which I got from Team Sirius 2 turns before it was done. I hope this suggestion can be reconsidered into banning the Manhattan Project.

Please come back to me on this as soon as possible because of the diplomatic implications going on if Team Q stalls the decision here, and also because I would hate losing more research beakers to nothing.

 

[Caledorn]

BTW! Snaker8, if you're still around and if you are interested, I would appreciate it if you could handle the diplomatic messages going back and forth between the teams so I don't have to. I assume noone here will object to that?

 

[Caledorn]

Based on the response I got from Sommerswerd I see no other option at the moment than to change the research goal to not aggravate Team Amazon needlessly. I will quote the response I got from him.

 

[Caledorn]

Here is Sommers' response to me:

Hey Caledorn,

Sorry I advised you to get Fission, but I only said that because you had already selected it, so I was just telling you no one else was teching it. So I am sorry you spent those 2 turns researching Fission. However this is not wasted beakers, because as soon as the UN resolution passes, you could go right back to Fission without any beaker loss. As you might have expected, we would really like to put off Fission until after the UN resolution banning nukes.

We can't go along with the idea about trying to ban Manhattan Project. The problem with banning Manhattan project, is that Teams could still build it covertly, by boosting espy and thus masking their cities. Once everyone has Fission, there is too great of a risk that Manhattan might be built in spite of the proposed ban.

Sorry you lost the beakers put into Rocketry. I did not notice you were teching it until it was too late, and even then, I just assumed you were trying to race with Sirius for the Aluminum corporation, so I did not say anything about it. If you had asked us beforehand I could have told you that you were duplicating research, but in any case, you should not think of the turns you spent on Rocketry as being included with the 2 turns you spent on Fission. Rocketry is not on the tech path to Fission so turns spent on one don't have anything to do with the other.

Remember that in the ETTT, you never "waste" turns teching anyway, because we all share tech. Since we all share tech there is no "tech-race" and therefore no "wasted" turns. If teams duplicate research, it means we all get tech a few turns slower but there is absolutely no harm in that, because we are all at peace. This is very different from when rival alliances are racing to get a tech advantage. Then every turn counts and you have to avoid waste, but in the current situation there is no rush and there is no race, so wasted turns don't matter.

There is no rush to get any tech. We don't need to tech fast. If you think about it, slower teching benefits Q the most, because Q has the most infrastructure to build, and the most catching up to do. The longer we put off a space race, the better Q's chances are, so you should not be worried about "wasted" teching.

Plus, TBH, Nuclear Plants are not necessary at all. You can already build coal plants which do the same thing. We have a SushiCo exec on the way which will reach Q lands next turn. You can spread Sushi Co and on this seafood-heavy map SushiCo will give you more than enough food to overcome any unhealthiness from Coal Plants. All we ask is that you do not give SushiCo to Sirius or CDZ.

Another thing worth mentioning. Nuclear plants have a high meltdown rate. I have had a meltdown everytime I use nuclear plants, which is why I stopped using them. But at a minimum, if you absolutely must have Nuclear plants, please put them off until after the UN resolution. Maybe prioritize getting the tech for UN as a tech goal?

The last thing, is that Sirius has already agreed not to tech Fission and they also approve of the UN ban on nukes, so although you may be right that it "benefits AMAZON the most" Sirius also sees that it is the best way to pursue a peaceful victory.

Talk to you soon,

Sommers

 

[Caledorn]

I sent this response to Sommers:

Hey again, Sommers

Aggravating the other ETTT members is simply not an option for Team Q. We accept the proposal, and will abide by it.

We will also accept your request that we do not spread Sushi Co to any of the other teams, of course.

 

[whb]

Sounds good.

Has any contact been made with the other teams? While I agree we should change research techs, I think letting Amazon be our sole conduit for news on the other teams might not be a good long term plan.

Even just a note to Sirius saying

"Hi, as you should be able to see in-game, we've switched research techs as we heard from Amazon that you (and they) weren't keen for Fission to be researched and wanted to delay it until after the UN can ban nuclear weapons. Rest assured there was no malice intended in our picking it as the next tech to research. Rgds."

Do you think that'd be a good idea?

For instance if Sirius had not agreed a no-nukes policy and Sommerswerd was telling porkies, they'd let us know pretty quick. Likewise should engourage Sirius to contact us directly rather than using Amazon as their mediator (which is bad for both Sirius and Q as it lets Amazon frame our diplomacy with each other)

 

[Caledorn]

I have not contacted the other teams much, except for sending CDZ an ingame message that they should not fear our military prescence in Pulsar Plateau and that the troops placed there are solely for avoiding a cultural flip. We are losing more tiles there, so I can't wait for Sid's Sushi Co - I'll mention more about that in the Turn Discussion thread.

Contacting the other teams, with a message like what you've suggested here, is in my opinion an excellent idea!

I am hoping someone can do the honours of contacting the other teams by PM, as I would feel more comfortable with not being overwhelmed by having to do everything. Snaker8 expressed interest in doing the diplomatic work earlier, so I'm hoping he is still interested. I'll send him a PM and hope he has email notifications on just in case he doesn't pay attention to the forums at the moment.

I would like a closer cooperation with Sirius personally, as well as the Amazons. If we were to go to war it's pretty obvious that CDZ will be our target considering we are in heavy cultural conflict with them already now.

 

[Bowsling]

Hmm...

I don't really like that message. I know it's just casual communication, but he gives off this air of "We're better than you."

My preference would be to reply to them telling them that they were right about the tech pace, and turn down the research slider considerably to invest in espionage and gold, but continue researching fission.

 

[Caledorn]

My personal opinion is that we cannot afford that option, Bowsling. If we do that we will most likely be ousted from the ETTT and quite possibly DoWed by all 3 other teams within 10 turns. Which basically means game over for us within a span of 30-40 turns if my fear becomes real.

If the majority of the team wants us to pursuit that option on the other hand, that is of course what we'll do. Better to go out with our chin raised if that's what we want to!

 

[Bowsling]

Yeah. I was just pretty ticked reading that message. We might as well comply.

 

[Caledorn]

I sent this letter off to Sommerswerd:

Greetings Sommerswerd!

On behalf of Team Quatronia, I would like to ask if Team Amazon would be so kind as to allow us the control of the Great Wonders of the Eiffel Tower and Rock'n'Roll. We have set Continuum to build the Eiffel Tower, as this wonder would greatly help our cultural issues on Hoag. We would also like to build Rock'n'Roll in Pulsar Plateau to get an additional +50% culture output in said city.

I believe Team Amazon have a greater hammer output than Team Q have in our cities, so you could probably easily outproduce us on these two wonders if you want to. This is why I am asking this on behalf of our team, as we have a history of mutual cooperation.

If we get the Rock'n'Roll wonder we will of course provide you with the happiness resource, and if there is anything Team Amazon would like in return for this favour feel free to let us know and we will do our best to assist in return!

Best Regards,
Caledorn

Surprisingly we got this response, which I was not prepared for at all:

Hello to Caledorn and all of Team Q,

Team AMAZON had big plans for Eiffel Tower, as it has perfect synergy with our CHA trait. However we are happy to defer to our good friends the Q since you guys claimed it first.

We had also planned on making a go at Rock N Roll, plus, it is highly irregular (and a little unfair/greedy) to try to claim more than one thing at a time, especially 2 great Wonders. Usually, when a new baubles become available, you claim one thing and give your ally a chance to claim something else, but again, we will agree not to go after either of the Wonders as per your request.

You mentioned being open to doing us a favor. The team agreed that I should request you agree to stop assigning espionage points on us permanently. Please understand this is not a condition on cooperating with you to get the Wonders. We will give you dibs on the Wonders regardless of whether you grant our request or not.

Good Luck

Sommerswerd

I did not expect Team Amazon to accept that we get both the wonders, and this brings up some interesting questions. Team Amazon knows we want the wonders to combat the culture loss on the southern peninsula of the main continent to CDZ. I think it is pretty safe to assume that Team Amazon is inclined to cooperate with us, and that they are also inclined favourably towards us and not so much towards CDZ. Another option, though, may be that they can see with their espionage that we outhammer them in regards to the Eiffel Tower, and that we have a Great Engineer on it's way to build Rock'n'Roll. I am pretty sure they can still see our cities.

My thoughts, however, is that we should seriously consider a more close alliance with Team Amazon, and then build up more military and simply just go to war with Team CDZ. We cannot do that without first being in an alliance with either Amazon or Sirius. But being in an alliance with Sirius would not help us much, as they are too distant. Amazon, however, has interests in several of the CDZian cities.

This may be a gambit, and i will put up a poll on it for those of you who are not inclined to voice your opinion here, just so everyone gets heard. But at the moment we are losing grasp of even #3 spot by the day, so unless we want to end up in #4 we need to take some chances to be able to get it done.

Poll upcoming - but please voice your thoughts if you have any!

 

[CharlemagneXLII]

I think we need to get from under Amazon's heel, so I would say absolutely not to their request for no espionage against them. If you are confident that we can get one or both wonders on our own, why did you ask them? I don't want to owe them a favour (no big deal though). We can send a retraction of sorts saying we meant to ask for one of them (but still try for both). Since Amazon is in the lead, I don't think they will want to shake things up too much with a war where we have a potential to increase our standing relative to them, so I don't think they would ally with us. I'm all in favour of attacking CDZ with overwhelming force though (we have to defeat them before the others can intervene).

 

[Caledorn]

There are three reasons I asked:

First reason is that I am not at all confident we can get both wonders, let alone one of them. I do not know how much hammers the Great Engineer will provide for the Rock'n'Roll wonder, and I know we started building Broadway more or less at the same time they did when I first came to Q. They completed Broadway when we had 2 or 3 turns left on it in Continuum, which is our primary hammer output city.

Second reason is that Amazon has a far larger military force than us. If we tick them off too much they may get hostile towards us, which is not something I would enjoy having to deal with. It's pretty safe to say that Amazon is in a very comfortable spot right now where they have no real fear of any other team overtaking them. Based on the fact that we get our tech advancements from CDZ and Sirius primarily, it's also a pretty safe bet that they are concentrating on hammers and espionage now to prepare for the space race.

Third reason is that Amazon has a history of helping our team. In the war with Sirius, our team was nearly conquered, and one of the main reasons we got out of that war (putting us in our current position with all the cities on Comet) was that blubmuz of Team Sirius did a DM that Team Amazon spotted. Team Amazon demanded that Team Sirius gave us all those cities on Comet as part of the peace offer, and without that demand we would have been isolated to QHI and the cities we are losing pace with culturally on Hoag. Amazon still seems very friendly towards us and our cause, and reading between the lines with Sommerswerds response to my question about the wonders he is more or less directly implying that Amazon will be happy that we can gain a cultural foothold back on the southern peninsula. I am also pretty confident that based on this, we can go ahead and ask them for a military alliance where we can rely on them to help protect our cities while we go to war with CDZ.

Like I have said earlier, I am not very confident about military operations, and I am afraid that I'm going to blow it if we go to war against them. Being the turn player is one thing, but being the turn player responsible for our demise is entirely another when there are options available.

However, when I stated what I stated about favours I did not have espy in mind. It was more of a "We will of course provide the same service back if a wonder should arise that Team Amazon wants"-kind-of-thing. Right now, however, I'm not sure investing money in espy is a good idea anyways as we are rapidly losing tile control on the Southern Peninsula.

 

[CharlemagneXLII]

Well, if you think that the Amazons will support us against CDZ, then I say go for it. But we'll have to get out from under them at some point, and I think giving up espy is just giving up too much.

 

[Caledorn]

I honestly believe they will - but I may be doing a horrible mistake in assuming so. That's why your feedback is so important. This is not Team Merlot, where I am the King making all the decisions and then informing you of them afterwards (although I did a mistake in sending off that letter to Sommerswerd without informing about it first, and I apologize for that!). I'm just the turn player.

When I left Amazon after my short time there to join Q, Sommerswerd promised me he'd help me as much as possible until I had enough confidence. My primary concern when leaving Amazon to come here was inactivity. I have sent off PM's to several of the team members - and even to two of the initial core members, Provolution and galdarian. Neither of those have even read my messages that I sent them immediately after joining the team (the message read receipt still stands as "unread"). Sommerswerd also mentioned that he had been discussing the possibilities of a more formal alliance with cav_scout, but that they never really got into the business of actually making something serious out of it. So I know that Sommerswerd and 2metraninja at least are positively inclined towards us, and I believe that they would very much like to see us overtake Sirius on the score list. Quite possibly also CDZ.

I still feel the team is a bit quiet. I miss more feedback from you guys, as I find it difficult to handle everything and retain confidence that I am doing the right thing. Especially when i see that we are losing foothold scorewise turn-by-turn to Sirius. But I appreciate the feedback I get, when you guys give it, a lot - and I feel that if we work closely together we should be able to do a good job together! (Yes I am nagging you all a bit for more feedback!)

I definitely agree it will be giving away too much to accept their request. If we were to do that I would ask them for more than just two great wonders, as it gives them a MAJOR advantage for the rest of the game. However, if we do ally with them, i see no reason why we cannot agree to keeping espy off while we build up espy on the other teams meanwhile. Our espy output is currently pretty low anyways, and i would rather funnel those 30% (or was it 40% - I don't remember exactly now) into culture to grab tiles back on the southern peninsula.

And here's a thought. How about using their request for a favour in a possible alliance document? Something along the lines of "We feel your request is reasonable for a short term (maybe 30 turns), but not on the long term since it would give you a huge advantage over us - however if we were to totally shut off all espionage against you, we would like to know that we are working more closely together than just doing favours here and there. So, if we were to formalize an alliance agreement, then your request is fair for as long as such an alliance might last, provided you do the same to us of course under the terms of the alliance." perhaps?

 

[Bowsling]

I would be game for a no-espionage pact where neither of us puts espionage on each other, but having one-way espionage is ludicrous.

I am slightly nervous about attacking CDZ however. What I would prefer would be if we could actually demand the CDZ cities on Hoag with the threat of being attacked by us and Amazon. Such a demand may get Sirius on our backs however, and that would be an interesting situation.

But the bottom line is that only one team can win, and Amazon has a clear lead. It may take a 3 v 1 to cut them back to size. Such a war, if timed well, could put us in the lead for the space race.

Also, don't sweat it if we fail in a war, after all, it's Multi-Team Demogame - and we were in distant fourth before you came along.