embedding mods within mods

[Gedrin]

Maybe it is just me but I see a problem with this.

If I install a mod with verion x of some other mod embeded in it...
What then when v x+1 comes out?

If I dl that mod will I have v x or v x+1?

I personally would prefer to see modders only embed their own mods.

Here is an example.
Econ mod includes many others incl unofficial patch
Balance combined includes the unofficial patch

Since Balance and unofficial patch are the same author I can be reasonably sure they will be in sync
Econ however will at some point be out of sync

Mods are suppoded to be modular. Why build a mod you know will have a conflict by including their work?

I understand that in cases where they both conflict due to editting ingame.xml for example may need specific merges. But if it can be avoided....

I guess I would just rather see mods remain as indepentant as possible

 

[Afforess]

Too many mods are becoming incompatible with each other. Merging is the only reasonable solution.

 

[Seven05]

Mods are modular as long as they stick to changes to the database tables or additional files that can coexist with others without problems, like map scripts. Until or unless there is a change in mentality and mods are designed with the intention of being modular and players are content with having to download, install and activate multiple parts for a single mod the modular concept will remain limited to small tweaks and perhaps some 'mod mods' that adjust specific values in a popular mod.

Even then a compilation mod doesn't completely break the modular capabilities of Civ 5. You can have new civs that work on top of the compilations and the advantage to you is the same, you can use them independantly of each other or together without any more effort than a few mouse clicks from within the game, something that was completely impossible with Civ 4.

What will be fun is when people start getting into the really big mods and players start asking why they are no longer modular. We've already found a number of files that need to be included in whole within a mod that changes them and that breaks the modular design to a degree, what's going to happen when the community figures out how to do more? And what about the DLL? That'll be a fun one to explain why it's not modular

 

[Spatzimaus]

Too many mods are becoming incompatible with each other. Merging is the only reasonable solution.

Merging is not reasonable in most cases. For simple little game balance changes, sure, but if we're adding large amounts of content (new techs, with new units and new buildings) then mods will never really be compatible. If I have a mod that adds new techs, and you have a mod that adds new techs, the chances that they'd mesh together without a huge amount of interference is basically zero. In general, it's up to the user to make sure he's not trying to pack too many new features into his current game.

To the original poster, the simple answer is, the makers of those mods should try NOT to include other content. Why, exactly, does the balance mod need to include the unofficial patch? Keep them separate, and have the user load both when he starts a new game. Given how many of the changes in the various balance mods are self-contained XML alterations, there's just no need to lump them all together (except for a certain Mod UI limitation which should be fixed soon).

I've done this in my own mod work. I've currently got three mods that are intended to work together: one's a bunch of basic setting changes (many of which will be obsoleted by the patch), one's a bunch of balance changes intended to slow the game down a bit, and one's a massive content mod. To run the content mod you'd want the other two, but I won't package them all into one big super mod, because I need the ability to change one of the other two without requiring everyone to get new versions of the third. If one of the mods in question is provided by someone else, it becomes even more critical to design things this way.

 

[Afforess]

Merging is not reasonable in most cases. For simple little game balance changes, sure, but if we're adding large amounts of content (new techs, with new units and new buildings) then mods will never really be compatible. If I have a mod that adds new techs, and you have a mod that adds new techs, the chances that they'd mesh together without a huge amount of interference is basically zero. In general, it's up to the user to make sure he's not trying to pack too many new features into his current game.

The real problem is that Firaxis's modbuddy doesn't yet support modding associations, so mods lack the ability to block or require other mods. Until that feature is fixed in a patch, merging is the only reasonable solution.

 

[Gedrin]

I am not saying merging is never required. I am saying most merging are seemingly being done when it is not required.

The only time I am ok with this unneccassary merging is when you merge your own work into your mod.

Why? It cuts down on the number of mods I have to install without the possibility of conflict.

If I install the latest balanced combined I am confident and happy to get the latest unofficial patch because they are the same author.

If I install the latest econ mod I have no reason to think I have the latest unofficial patch because it could be older.

So then I have to ask which is older? Does econ clobber the changes made by the latest unofficial patch with its own embeded and possibly older unofficial patch?

If it is not your own mod how can you ensure you are embedding the latest version?

I am trying to explicitly exempt from this mods that must be merged due to technical challenges still to be resolved.

 

[SamBC]

The real problem is that Firaxis's modbuddy doesn't yet support modding associations, so mods lack the ability to block or require other mods. Until that feature is fixed in a patch, merging is the only reasonable solution.

The story from 2K is that this is disabled in ModBuddy quite deliberately because the features to make use of the association data are not yet functional in the game. When they release the patch that fixes this in the game, there will be a simultaneous (or nearly so) patch for the SDK that allows you to add this data in ModBuddy.

 

[magus424]

The issue is that too many people want to tightly integrate their mods into the UI or other things, so they're fully replacing XML files when they don't have to.

e: I should clarify; there are some mods that can't be done any other way, but I've seen numerous ones that can, but choose not to.