Emperor training grounds--I need training!

[scoutsout]

Couldn't disagree more...A COM Civ, and no income

Let me re-phrase that - we didn't need a market in Madras yet. The town that was building a market was Madras, which is one of our more productive cities, and it has a barracks. When I last played the game I got it up to 6 spt net, and it was the only city (other than the capitol) we had that was capable of that level of production. We were building units in Calcutta (granary, no barracks)... which really didn't make sense to me. Though we really needed some units in the western end of our empire, we could have been pumping units out of Madras until we got another proper "unit factory" going...

And btw scout, your crusade against Temples, even when playing a REL Civ on a level where you could easily afford the shields - how many cities did that cost so far ? And the units lost because ot thát should be about the sp of Temples in any city...

First, the nagging questions:

The flips cost 2 cities (counting a captured size 9 city with a Wonder), and 2 units. We lost a spear when Siringar flipped (it's pretty close to Madrid) and we lost a Spear when Barcelona flipped. I suspect Bede will do a raze and replace with the settler I put in position on my last turn to avoid the flip risk at Barcelona. There is also the little matter of a volcano right next to the city... that went active on my turns...

The more basic questions ("Trainees" please note) DocT raises an issue here that is pretty important - "playing to the strength of the civ". In other words, by not building temples, we are not taking advantage of one of the strengths of India. Fifteen shields per culture point really is cheap, and perhaps we should discuss this more...

I fully agree with Cathedrals usually not worth it. But this kind of anti-Temple playstyle works only when you raze/replace everything, and avoid any overlap with AI cities. Or as a variant rule.

Believe it or not, I started a temple in the build queue of one of our towns. (Possibly two...but I know I started one in that town sandwiched between English borders...)

I think you may misunderstand my "hatred" of temples. You are correct, cheap temples can be a wonderful source of culture, and a 30 shield Temple truly is a "horse of a different color" from a 60-shield temple. I think in the context of a "training" game it can be helpful to learn how to play without temples... a lot of players working to break "builder" habits tend to over-estimate the happiness value of temples. But 30 shield temples are potentially valuable as a source of cheap culture.

Also, the Mongols get their UU at the same time as us. Though Almarikh's Spices look oh-so-inviting.

We need to keep a watchful eye on Temujin. Though I think jungle will slow the Keshik, the rest of the terrain won't. It is not unthinkable that we could see some keshiks penetrating pretty deep into our territory during a war, and we will need to do some careful tactical planning to be sure this doesn't cause too many problems for us. In the last COTM I submitted (the Aztec game) I had some MDI stacks that got badly shredded by Spanish Conquistadors, who were able to strike much deeper than I anticipated. Fortunately, I had knights (soon to be Cav) on the way... but I learned to respect units that have a mobility advantage in rough terrain.

 

[viper275]

[rant]Even if scout wanted to build temples in these cities, both flips happened a little too early to do so (Barcelona was only part of India for 4 turns, which would mean scout needed 8 spt the whole time, which is not realistic in a newly captured city, and Siringar flipped on his first IBT, although I could have built a temple there.) I do admit I don't like temples a whole lot, but they're different with religious civs. I understand the point, but the effect was a bit overemphasized. I'm not trying to start flaming here or anything, and I would definitely like it if someone can point out something I just don't see in temples. [/rant]

I think I like that idea of playing the strength of the civ here. What I'm thinking of is building temples in newly captured lands where there is unfilled space between cities. 1 content face isn't too great to me, so I'm thinking mainly of culture. This did make me realize that we need more luxuries (we only have 1.)

Oh, and Keshiks only ignore the move cost of hills and mountains.

 

[scoutsout]

@Viper: Your thought of putting temples in outlying (corrupt) towns might play well if our goal is domination... We'll let Bede weigh in on this discussion as well.

IIRC, Bede suggested that plarq pick this up after me.... who has a good track on the order-of-go here?

 

[Bede]

It is now 250AD and the Spanish are no longer on the continent. Isabella is in a galley off our eastern coast looking for a place to live. htere is a galley coming from the northernmost town on the IT to intercept. We could of course make a peace treaty but she has no money and no knowledge....no trade goods and no resources.

The remaining Spanish towns fell like dominos, no losses. Barcelona flipped once more but taking it back cost nothing.

In the assaiult on the last Spanish town an elite horse spawned a leader who is currently heading north after forming an army (currently empty). We could fill it with swords and go after the English with a little reorg of the forces we have. (they have no iron at the moment and gazing at the map I see only one other source-in the Mongol lands).

There is a settler on the way to fill in some of the Spanish plain, where it rained, judging from the rivers and jungles down that way.

Cut a deal with Gengis for some luxuries to get the taxes down. We do need to build some markets and libraries in the core.

As for the temple debate....using them to close borders in the further reaches is not the way to go, use settlers, and instead of getting a 1gpt maintenance payment you get a 1gpt to the treasury plus the value of unit support for a town. Spreading temples across the land is the way to a cultural victory and we are already behind that curve. Keeping the population down in those towns (no more than six) and farming taxes out of them is the most productive thing you can do.

Anyway, we now have iron, some new cities and an occasional free firewoirks show at Barcelona.

The tactics were the straightforward cats first, horsemen next, then depending on the the state of the defense archer and swords for the kill. The other important factor to keep in mind is don't go cowboying into the weeds after stray units, unless it is a gadawful SoD aiming straight for your capitol. Keep the forces together and apply mass at the right point.

Over to plarq, I think.

We do need a detailed discussion of our next moves as I am in a war mongering mood right now and am inclined to say build a sword army and go kill some Englishman, starting with Glasgow then straight for London.

 

[scoutsout]

Sounds like some solid turns there Brother Bede!

In the assaiult on the last Spanish town an elite horse spawned a leader <snip>

Sword Army! Sword Army!! Sword Army!!!

If I may pick a nit, the empty army has a movement of 1, while the leader has a movement of 3... it's usually better to move the leader to a city and then form the army...

Cut a deal with Gengis for some luxuries to get the taxes down. We do need to build some markets and libraries in the core.

Sounds like a Good Idea. And (as you might expect) I like your thoughts on Temples too.

The tactics were the straightforward cats first, horsemen next, then depending on the the state of the defense archer and swords for the kill. The other important factor to keep in mind is don't go cowboying into the weeds after stray units

I quoted this because it's worth re-reading. Don't Chase Strays!!! Stay focused on the objective!

We do need a detailed discussion of our next moves as I am in a war mongering mood right now and am inclined to say build a sword army and go kill some Englishman, starting with Glasgow then straight for London.

I'll have a look at the save...

 

[scoutsout]

My thoughts after looking at the save..war with England, etc.:

Toronto is a candidate for raze and replace if we can get 2 productive cities where England placed one. Canterbury needs to be sacked (razed) and replaced with 2 cities, one on the river to the SW. Sydney simply needs to be captured, it's in a good spot.

Axis of Advance:

In the North: Put 2 Archers and a spear (maybe 2) in Panchkula. Leave them there for the moment. Put 2 Archers, 2 Settlers, and 3 Swords in Tirruppur. Build a road towards Canturbury, take the swords and archers, and sack it. Raze-and-Replace. Send the survivors against Sydney.

In the South:

Divide most of our forces in the 3 towns bordering England. Send some workers to build a road 3 South of Delhi. Then take the Sword Army and a couple of swords and advance against Toronto. With Toronto taken (or sacked) advance on Glasgow, then London, using the troops from the border towns to augment the Stack of Doom.

Empire management notes:

I suggest we consider swapping builds in towns that are 50% corrupt (or worse) to courthouses if there is already a cultural improvement in place. (See Nagpur, Toledo). Swap Harappa to unit builds. Build a few swords there to go after the tundra towns.

Calcutta has a barracks and a Granary. Good place to peel off workers when the population gets unhappy. I would probably skip the temple there. Build a Library (eventually) and units. We've got a lot of 'builder builds' going... we need a few more units.

Worker priorities: We've got some citizens working semi-improved tiles. For example: we've got a worker doing something in the tundra at Tiruppur, while a citizen is working a roaded (otherwise unimproved) grassland tile.

@Team: If you don't have the patience to scroll through our cities every turn, at least scroll through them at the beginning of your turnset, and in the middle. Look for tiles that need worker turns, and look for tile-swapping opportunities (see Bombay and Guntur).

Edit: Dropping a Gauntlet The challenge: Push England into the sea before my turn comes back.

 

[plarq]

Well,then,I got it.

Days passed slowly during mid-term exams,and I didn't pay attention to the discussion of the team.While Bede's driven Spainish to galley,the English and Mongols are under our threat.Being a Monarchy,it's best to wage war like a maniac.Temples are not essential at this time being,and maybe not in a distant future.I mean,our playing style constrains our REL trait.Being a warmonger Ghandi(far away from RL),our Hinduism faith isn't worth more than a small piece of Swords and Horses,so Barcelona flipped twice back to the Catholic Spainish.

Roster:
Plarq:got it
eldar:On deck
vipern next deck
Bede
Scoutsout

 

[eldar]

Annoying about Barca flipping back again, but now we have it under our control, and Spain become a truly Seafaring Civilisation, we ought to keep it, as the GW is handy and will make enemy re-taking of towns that bit more difficult.

Don't think I've ever encountered a Settler-on-a-Boat before... hopefully Plarq can sink it before it comes round to me, but those Galleys are often tough to kill!

Regarding England... if possible, I think we should reduce them to 1 city (not Sydney, Canterbury, or Tornonto, though), then get Techs for peace. 20 turns later, finish the job.

Neil.

 

[scoutsout]

Regarding England... if possible, I think we should reduce them to 1 city (not Sydney, Canterbury, or Tornonto, though), then get Techs for peace. 20 turns later, finish the job.

England has a couple of towns on a lousy marsh island. Since we don't have a navy, we will likely need to leave those towns for a later war. Push England off this landmass ("into the sea") and lay plans for taking on Temujin.

 

[Bede]

The English should rename one of the tundra towns Dunquerke.

 

[plarq]

Here's save and screenshot

 

[Bede]

Looks like fun.....

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

lurker's comment: On the Temple issue:
I'm not advocating to start Temples before anything else in outlying towns. The point is: With a REL Civ on Emperor, you can build a couple of Temples very early. That way, your overall culture will scyrocket, making culture flips a lot less likely. The importance of local Temples isn't that big (except to expand borders!) - you'd need more local culture than Spain accumulated in Barcelona...
But losing a native city to a flip should not happen with a REL Civ below Deity.

On the Market issue: Scout, I didn't see you refered to Madras; in that case, you're right, of course.

 

[eldar]

I have the .zip, but it's empty.

[Edit] when I do get the save - looks like I'll have a couple of Settlers to plonk down near where English territory used to be. Someone want to come up with a dotmap? Or maybe I should attempt one....

Neil.

 

[eldar]

Right, my dotmap attempt:

The third of the three southern dots (the 'apex' of the triangle) is for later, if we really want it.

Neil.

 

[scoutsout]

@eldar: try the zip file again. I was able to d/l it. On that northern blue dot... take it another space NE. That will be a fishing village, and it will need as much coastline as possible.

I'll leave it to the team to discuss the southern 3, but try this:

Press <Ctrl-G> to turn on the grid lines. Take your screencap. Then place the dots, and draw a square to outline the 9 tiles of the city. This helps identify gaps or bad overlaps.

@DocT: Good point on the early culture... I'm afraid we've already missed the window of opportunity for that. RE: Madras - your comments were on point, I wasn't very clear with my original statement.

Edit:

@Plarq: I hadn't initially noticed that you have already played your ten. I see you sacked Toronto and captured Glasgow.

 

[eldar]

The zip is empty, or at least, that's what I'm getting (I've downloaded it twice now, same result both times).

Neil.

 

[viper275]

Plarq's zip? It worked okay for me.

 

[eldar]

Thanks - no idea what was wrong with what I'd got!
I'll wait for the other dotmaps before playing - 24 hours okay?

Neil.

 

[Bede]

Try this.....