Emperor Tutorial Series I - The Pyramids based SE (Monarch/Prince players welcome)

[TheMeInTeam]

Yeah late game your Bio-scientists are better / tile than FS/PP Towns at sliders 80% or lower. That said you are losing 1 per Bio-scientist that the town would be turning into for you but still your city is dramatically more efficient than the equivalent CE gold city running bio-merchants as long as your SE science slider is under 60% (it should always be down in the 0-30% area). If you can run a science slider under SE higher than 30% without deficit you are not working enough scientists or have too many cottage cities and should have more farms to support those scientists. Of course its really hard to pave over those cottage cities you inherit but I make myself feel better by simply pillaging like mad on AI cities I don't intend to be revenue generators. The you can produce with a just a couple of extra calvary roaming around while to sack cities is insane.

Really the key to SE is hyper specialization. It does fine late game as long as you can manage that thanks to efficiency of multiplier buildings. I won't go as far as to say that due to the hyper specialization SE can actually out-produce CE on a tile by tile basis but I think they really do come damned close to each other late game. What might give CE the edge here is US. If not for US I think the SE would be dead even if not a little ahead.

I kind of dislike deceptive statements like "more beakers above 80%"

Your gold comes from somewhere. If it's merchants, towns are more efficient. Passive commerce can push the slider up pretty high if you're in SP, even without any cottages. Especially if you build wealth in hammer cities. On a tile by tile basis, specs under rep are better. On a pop by pop basis, towns are.

 

[feralminded]

I'll have to whip up an example later tonight if I'm not too delirious from the cough medicine. Been really sick lately.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

So, to sum it up, both economies are viable all the way to the modern era.
Cottages start slowly and explode later, while specialist are very strong up to the medieval era, then lose a bit of steam, but catch up at biology.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

What about the hammer bonus from US? It's been huge for me in quite a few games. Basically turns every good commerce city into a solid production center.


Back to the game, 1400 - 1706, the bitter ending:

Spoiler :

techs: rep parts - rifling - chemistry - steel - constitution

Yes, 5 techs in 300 years. Pitiful.

At the end of the last round we was at war vs Brennus and JC, spamming cuirassiers from pretty much every city.

1405 - Huge roman stack shows up on a hill near Bibracte. I retreat all my cuirassiers back to heal at Gergovia, leaving Bibracte undefended. The plan is to wipe JC's stack in the open ground.

1410 - JC captures Bibracte.

1415 - And is stupid enough to split his stack. Half is destroyed outside Gergovia.

1425 - The other half is destroyed between Bibracte and Gergovia.

1470 - Camulodunum captured.

1475 - Peace with JC for free.

1480 - Tolosa captured.

1495 - JC accept Brennus' vassalization, so I'm at war with both of them again.

1520 - Verlamion captured and JC arrives with another big stack (20ish units).

1525 - JC's stack killed.

1550 - But he captures Tolosa with a few stragglers.

1550 - Vienne captured.

1560 - Tolosa razed.

1565 - Angora captured.

1575 - Nicaea captured and Brennus is dead:



A lot of WW and emancipation unhappiness, but I decide to push on JC. Upgraded most of my cuirassiers to cavalry and JC still doesn't have rifles at this point. I'll try to vassal him quickly.

1590 - Justi bribed by JC. Ok then, peace with JC and I'll wipe Justi. Smart move, genius. Bribed by JC, who promptly chickened out at the first chance. And neither Justi has rifles at this point.

1595 - Thessalonica captured.

1605 - Two turns are enough for Justi to go from no rifles to rifles EVERYWHERE. I'm really tired of this bs, but no problem, I'll wipe him with numbers.

1610 - Nicomedia captured.

1620 - Costantinople. Look at that buddhist shrine:



1635 - Magic byzantine rifles recapture Thessalonica.
I capture Adrianople.

1645 - Thessalonica recaptured.

1665 - Trebizond, and Justi's dead. This is what you get for accepting stupid bribes:




So, 300 years later I find myself with a lot of new good land. Already spamming cottages everywhere:





But the tech board looks totally hopeless. I know I will catch up with all my land, but it will take a while:



But then I look at the diplo screen:



Wich brings me to:



Oh yes, I can pull off an AP victory, so let's keep playing.

1670 - Defensive pact with Pacal AND Peter for two reasons: diplo bonus and to make JC think twice about declaring again.

1706 - And finally (on a side note, a mere 30 years later I'm generating almost 200 more bpt):





Demographics are BAD:



Stats, Montezuma's style:



And score:




Ok, a bit cheesy and definitely anti-climatix, but I was going to win via UN anyway. Once again, diplo management saved my day. It's really the only aspect of my gameplay I'm somewhat proud about. Everything else needs A LOT of work.
I know I was going to catch up later, but Will already had infantry, so I was probably looking at a modern war at tech parity.

All in all, very educational game. I've failed miserably at running a good SE, but now I understand how it works.
Will try it again, but cottages fit me better.

 

[Skallagrimson]

I thought I'd try out the wonder economy on a new random (shuffle) map, as Ramesses, using the walk-through by FM.

It, uh, didn't turn out so well on the map I rolled:

Spoiler :

4000BC - Settled 1E for an extra floodplain. Hut popped a map. Teching AH, building worker.
3900BC - Hut pops Mining
3875BC - Met Willem
3775BC - Hut pops 51
3750BC - Met Suleyman
3625BC - Buddhism FIDL
3550BC - Finish AH, start BW
3425BC - Worker done, improves sheep. Warrior found horses SW of Thebes. Kind of a craptastic city, but anything for them horses!
3375BC - Hinduism FIDL
3150BC - Warrior done, start 2nd worker. Thebes size 2 now.
3100BC - Find better horses location to the north.

3025BC - Finish BW, start Mysticism. Copper in desert E of Thebes. Go slavery.
2950BC - Norther horse tile grabbed by Suleyman. Will have to go crappy south instead. The good news is, we'll be RUSHING!

2900BC - Barbs lurking. Definitely gotta get horsies ASAP.
2825BC - 2nd worker done, helps farm fp. Start warrior, Thebes is still size 2.
2775BC - Bear kills scouting warrior. Finish Mysticism, start Masonry.
2500BC - Finish Masonry. Building settler at size 2 hoping to chop, get it out to the horse location.
2175BC - Chopped SH instead of settler. Back to settler build. Health issues in Thebes already, will have to road up the sheep.
2050BC - Finish Writing. Start Pottery. Plan to cottage up the fp's.
2025BC - Finish Settler. Start next warrior.

1975BC - Memphis settled. Worker starts on horses. Thebes cultures over copper, 2nd worker goes after that.
1950BC - Warrior done, start 2nd Settler. City to the E will have pigs, grass hills, will be unit pump.
1875BC - O/B w/Willem. No idea where he is yet. Barb city sprouted to the south over silver, deer.
1850BC - Barb archer whacks warrior. No use expanding until war chariots are opened up. Switch Thebes to GW.
1775BC - Finish Pottery, start Alphabet. Lose GW. Start 'mids.
1750BC - O/B w/Suleyman
1700BC - Judaism founded by Suleyman. He goes Jewish. Insta-spreads to Thebes, I won't convert just yet.
1600BC - Barb archer in Memphis threatening horses and the city itself. Whip barracks (and probably should have whipped war chariot)

1525BC - Horses nerfed, not looking good for Memphis (cross fingers)
1500BC - Finally some good luck. Warrior kills barb archer, Memphis survives.
1300BC - GP born, settle in Thebes. Still trying to chop 'mids.
1200BC - Oracle built IFAL
1175BC - Jewish lovefest, convert

0950BC - Finish Alphabet, trade for poly, fishing, hunting; start Math

(at this point I started to forget to take screenshots, sorry)
0875BC - Chop/whip 'mids. Boxed in totally. All military all the time now. Go Rep.
0675BC - Oh what the hell. Might as well try for T of A in Thebes. Memphis keeps unit pumping.
0470BC - Finished math, going Construction. Nothing left to chop for T of A. Slipping to tech backward due to only 2 cities. May need to switch back to units in Thebes. Confucianism FID0335BC - T of A BIFAL. Now for sure all mil all the time even in Thebes.
0125BC - Finish Construction, start Curr
0025AD - Settle 2nd GP
0145AD - There's just no way at this point. Pull the plug. Stack of 8 all killed trying to take a 2-archer barb city, then Willem scoops it up with one chariot.

Wonder-whoring on Emperor is JUST not working out for me, even as Ind. I just plain get out-REXed and boxed in because there's not enough focus on expansion or early war.

See the pathos! Final save attached!

 

[feralminded]

So, to sum it up, both economies are viable all the way to the modern era.
Cottages start slowly and explode later, while specialist are very strong up to the medieval era, then lose a bit of steam, but catch up at biology.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

What about the hammer bonus from US? It's been huge for me in quite a few games. Basically turns every good commerce city into a solid production center.

I just spent about 4 hours making a crazy comparison using a 20 city empire. Took forever in worldbuilder but basically SE using Rep/FS/CS/SP/FR had a slight edge over CE using US/FS/EMC/FM/FR. I believe the SE was producing 2900ish / turn and the CE was producing 2600ish /turn ... however the CE wasn't doing anything with its extra at that point and this was with Ramesses so no FIN. I think FIN would have closed to gap to about half, give or take. Finally if I had turned every city to producing I think they would have been very close due to the US advantage. I might do that tomorrow. I intend to do a full write up but basically its a total wash at the end game. The other point of interest was even with a single city SE was able to run a 50% slider ... of course this was in like 1400AD ... I guess 1900AD there would be more inflation so the slider would go down. Anyhow subject for a different post but it looks like late game its a total wash.

 

[mc-red]

I thought I'd try out the wonder economy on a new random (shuffle) map, as Ramesses, using the walk-through by FM.

It, uh, didn't turn out so well on the map I rolled:

See the pathos! Final save attached!

Skalla,
I have only tried this once on the Roosevelt LHC on monarch/epic.
I think that would be good game for you to try it on.

 

[michmbk]

Finally got around to finishing this - everyone else appears to be already through, but I'll post my report anyway. 10 AD to 1762 - domination win.

Spoiler :

I had to play this in two parts because it started getting too slow on my laptop. So I had to wait until the weekend to finish. Anyway, I left off starting philosophy in 10 AD. Generated my first scientist in Thebes, and instead of waiting 8 turns to bulb edu, I decided the academy and 45 beakers per turn in Thebes was a good choice. Hoping once I finish National Epic in Thebes, I’ll quickly get a GS to finish education.

Meanwhile, Pacal is demanding everything – wants me to stop trading with Brennus, my friendly BFF – I accept because don’t want to war with him yet. He then demands civil service a few turns later, which I reject, and shortly after that, wants me to accept hereditary rule, which I decide to do for 5 turns, even if it costs me a few beakers for 5 turns in Thebes.

I trade CS to Justy for MC and 240 gold – useful to race to lib and then decide what tech to shoot for. I get a couple scientists thanks to pacifism and national epic, and bulb part of education and most of liberalism. Check it out – 610 AD and I’m 1 turn from lib! That’s easily a record for me personally. Time to go for gunpowder – I’m thinking either lib-nationalism for cuirassiers, or depending on where the other civs are when I hit gunpowder, maybe trying for steel.



Pacal just demanded I go to war with Brennus, and he’s so badly beaten down, I agree. He can’t harm me and he’s nearly dead anyway, unfortunately. JC and Pacal have been beating on him all game. This is where it got too slow for me to bear on my laptop and I gave up, so the rest of this game is on my home computer. Tech situation just before lib:



And now, back to the game on my home computer. I realize the power of a souped up graphics card now – that Intel integrated accelerator thing really sucks on my laptop. Teching towards steel while watching to see if anyone gets education. Meanwhile, building lots of elephants to mop up after I get my cannons. I still don’t really feel like I have enough cities, but it should be ok once I get cannons – my only fear is can I whip/produce enough of them to really devastate my first target. This trade gets me 17 turns from Chem and my lib-steel slingshot.



A great engineers shows up in 805, and I decide to save him for at least a bit. He’ll be useful if I try to get Taj, or for another wonder later on. Now that I’m close to steel, I have to decide who to go after. I have a natural buffer between me and JC/Justy/Willem in Brennus, so for them to DOW me they’ll have to really send their troops a bit further away. I’d rather go after one of them first rather than Peter (as Peter is pleased and close to friendly with me), but the proximity of Peter is tempting me to go after him instead. Justy has two holy cities, but I think even though Peter has the most cities and is friendliest with me, I have to go after him first. He’s closest and should be the easiest to destroy. That would then set me up with a ton of land to really overpower everyone else. So Peter it is. Everyone is getting close to gunpowder as I’m getting close to chemistry, so speed is key if it’s going to be cannons against longbows and maces. Pacal hits education as I’m 4 turns from chem, but I have to risk it – don’t see how he can bulb lib. As I’m 1 turn from chem., JC declares war on Peter, so that cinches it – I’ll have to go after Peter hopefully catching him with pants down a bit. Big civics switch coming…

And in 990 AD – this:



I have the ability to produce cannons before 1000 AD – that’s a first! And here are some special new civics:



And a trade so I can head to better horsey units.



And now it’s game on – my goal is to try to invade Peter with 8-10 cannons plus the rest of my stack in 10 turns. That’ll mean whipping quite a bit. Going to be producing nothing but military for awhile, as this is the key to really growing my empire over the next 50-75 turns. My only fear is that Justy or JC tries to sneak in and DOW me while I’m fighting Peter, but I should be able to whip cannons for that if I have to. I’m also beelining rifles, but this is where I’m worried about my tech rate, because it’s starting to slow – I hope the cottages I’ve laid down in a few places start to pay off. Another scientist pops in Thebes, who I use to bulb part of printing press, since I’m headed towards rifles anyway.



Then Willem comes along with this deal – I hate to give away gunpowder, but this is a lot of gold, so I decide to take it – allows for some nice upgrades in my power stack. And 11 turns after I hit steel, I’m ready –
I managed to get 14 cannons together thanks to some serious whipping. All about the long run though. First city was easy – lost one cannon on 85% odds.



And another city, and then the all important Moscow:



Slow going, but beating up all his cities now. Not sure I want to take capitulation for the motherland unhappiness, so I slowly slog through war with him. JC DOWed him too, and I had to actually bribe JC for peace so he didn’t get to the last 2 cities of Peter before I did. It was worth it, because this:



Peter is finished, just as Justy DOWs JC, which is exactly what I want. Wars on the other side of the continent for a few turns will give me a chance to get everything set up for the next invasion – likely JC or Justy. Pop a spy in Thebes, which is a good time to go ahead and start this:



In the golden age, I build forbidden palace down in St Pete, one of Peter’s old cities, and build Ironworks in 1 turn thanks to my engineer in that same city. Now unit production almost everywhere. Only techs left that are important are communism and biology, and then gliding to assembly line for the finishing touches. And since JC hasn’t teched replaceable parts or steel, probably a good time to do this:



I DOWed Brennus since he was JC’s vassal. They’re in the middle of their war with Justy, so they’re getting it from both sides. My empire is huge now, and once I hit communism and SP, I think the economy will be in fantastic shape. I first take the two old Peter cities from JC, and then head to the three Brennus cities near me (which are swarmed in Thebes culture anyway). After taking this final Brennus city, I go for peace:



I wanted to do this so I could quickly send my stack at Justy. I want to put a dent in him before he gets rifling, and then can finish everyone off at assembly line. Justy, say hello to my ever growing stack of doom:



Bibracte, who Justy took from Brennus earlier, is quickly taken, and as I suspected:



It is shrined. No more free gold for you Justy. And a few more cities – the emancipation penalty is starting to hit home in a few cities, but I figure after I tech artillery I can backtrack to constitution/democracy, or even trade for it. I still have a monopoly on rifling in 1655 AD, so until someone gets that. I’m pressing my advantage. And Justy has had enough:



Only a matter of time now – too many units and too many cities. Tech is irrelevant – I hit artillery first, and start upgrading. Back to JC – hoping this will be quick. Rome was easy, and off to the rest of his cities. After two more cities, he capitulates. Now even though Willem is ahead of me in tech, he’s about to see a massive stack of doom coming his way. I think I’m turning tech off at assembly line – no need beyond that with my production power. And Willem, here are all my units arriving at your border:



And Willem allows me to take three cities before giving in:



And it wasn’t necessary to finish off Pacal – 1762 ends it. Pretty excited – my first emperor win. I’ll admit the map was tailored for success, but still, nice to get over the hump. Once I got by Peter, this was no different than a monarch game for me – just overpower the opponent, but it was definitely tougher getting there. Stats below:







Cannons were the key – bulbing with all the scientists and producing cannons before 1000 AD is unheard of for me. I also can’t believe I only built 7 libraries – that’s always the building I build the most of. I tried TMIT’s speed civving tip this time though, and every captured city went culture until it hit the first pop, then forge, granary, courthouse and barracks, followed by units. Seemed to work pretty well. Even though I was teching slowly at the end, it didn’t matter because I had so many units. I really used specialists to vault ahead, but by the end, was relying much more on cottages and state property to fund everything. Fun game – nice to have IND and stone with one of the more powerful leaders. Not looking forward to trying Mao on emperor as my next game – that’ll be much more of a test.

 

[feralminded]

Damn ... that was a pretty awesome win man. That's the real strength of the SE ... all those damned specialists. Abusing pacifism/CS is truly outrageous and this is the leader to do it with ... Ghandi w/stone is probably the only guy better for it although with PHI you can give the 'mids a pass if you like (although getting it is still huge). All in all though a solid win. I LOVE switching to PS/Vass/Slavery/Theo to build with ... it feels like cheating and is one of the greatest combos possible for non-draftable units and is one of the reasons why I say SPI is such a sick military attribute. Do it with horse units and they arrive with 9xp ... pretty slick way to bang out a Cuirasser army. However with cannons its super nasty. I'm hoping to fire up round 2 of this today once I finish with chores and all. It will be CE which I personally am much weaker at but hopefully it can still be instructive. I also intend to condense this thread into a quick tutorial for people.

 

[Krill]

Care to post a normal speed version of that save as well?

 

[michmbk]

I really do love that spiritual trait - going to be difficult to play an emperor game without it. I really think it's my favorite trait. If you're willing to micro civics, it can be such a devastating trait, and it made all the difference here. All units I produced had 7 XP from the get go, and when I was focused on teching, free religion helped the tech rate. The Mao game will be interesting, as I won't have the spiritual crutch or the IND/stone crutch.