Emperor vs Immortal

kochman

Deity
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Jun 8, 2009
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I have beaten Immortal a few times... but I have to say, I find it to be WAY harder than emperor, which I generally crush the AI in.

I am getting my 2nd city started when the AI is, and doing an axe rush... but I keep getting declared on AFTER the axe rush wipes out an opponent but I am basically weak. Barbs are a hugely contributing factor.
It seems in some games, they are not a problem really, and in others they are practically raging for no known reason... with a given that a large span of land is still able to spawn.

The only civs I have been able to win with so far are the Romans, and the English.
My general style is rush until close to 0% science, rebuild till about 60-70% science, rush, rebuild, etc...
Any tips?
 
as someone who has recently made that jump, I think it is hard to say what is holding you back without a save.

Post an immortal game in the Strategy and Tips forum with a random civ and I am sure you will get enough help to get you over the line.
 
the ai starts w/ an extra worker and more bonuses
and if you can't win w/o a rush... then you have to work on your strategy and timing
 
My general style is rush until close to 0% science, rebuild till about 60-70% science, rush, rebuild, etc...

I realize that this may sound like blah blah blah rhetoric, but play what the game gives you. Don't pigeon-hole yourself into an early rush.

I have found in many situations that an early rush works poorly unless it is handed to you on a silver platter. What I mean by this is if you get Bronze out of a tribal hut and it is in your bfc or if you have horses in your bfc, give it a try. I found in my games, I was unsuccessful in an early rush if horses or bronze was in the third ring of culture outside the BFC. That being said, it may be doable if you are a creative civ and can pop that second culture expansion earlier (I really haven't played out that scenario so I don't know). If your nearest neighbor is a Protective civ, forget about it. If he is not protective, but he built on a hill, good luck.

I found that a key to my immortal games is to prioritize basic worker techs, mining, Agr, BW, AH, +/- fishing, or less likely hunting. Then go for writing. Next try to build/chop a settler and a library. Run scientists to help your shrinking economy.

My secondary tech focus is on CoL, Aesth, or Alph. All are great trade bait. If you go for Aesth or Col, you may have to research 1 or 2 turns toward Alph at 100% on the slider since the AI is a real trade tight-wad on Immortal.

I rarely have problems with getting dog-piled early on unless you adopt a religion. Get open borders ASAP for the diplo boost that will follow. If all civs are Budd, Hind or Jud, then take the religion.

Worker stealing can be a huge benefit. Rarely, on a normal speed game, will I have an AI that will actually bring troops after me after an early worker steal.

Barbs can be an issue. I have been pretty successful with fog-busting with warriors. The AI will not spawn within two plots of your units or borders. So while I am growing my capitol, I build warriors and station them in a wilderness perimeter around my capitol, ideally on forest/jungle hills, or non-hilled if none available. These will limit spawned barbs and will take care of most barb archers and almost all warriors. (Sometimes they will slip by the fortified units, then improvise.) If you get bronze or horses in your 1st or 2nd city bfc, this obviously helps with barbs. Obviously, archers are better for barbs, but I can get away with delaying archers.

If you're stuck on an early rush, I would suggest bee-lining Horseback Riding for a horse archer rush (or Numidian or Keshik). (Don't forget archery.) My horse archer rushes usually have a few axemen and end with a cat or 2, since I usually get construction near the end of my rush.

I feel a GL/NE sprint while Rexing subsequently bulbing and targeting Lib helps to spring me to sit that opens up options by putting me in a tech lead. I don't waste time with wonders either. Although if you are playing a map with a lot of open land or raging barbs, the Great Wall is a must. You also don't need Stone to grab the GW.

I bail out my dying economy by getting the library built early and running Great Scientists, and then trading Col, and bulbing/trading Philosophy (and Paper if I have to.)

Having gold or gems and lots of food in you starting BFC are also a game breaker.
 
Yeah, when I moved to Immortal I could no longer do Axeman rushes. My earliest wars would be drafted Rifleman rushes :D Since then I've improved and can conquer a neighbour with Horse Archers, but the key realization was that Axeman rushes are no longer automatically guaranteed.

Learning to fogbust properly and cheaply was a big improvement as well.
 
Axemen rushes still work on Immortal. You just need to settle the second city based upon short term considerations, have copper close, and lots of forest to chop.
 
Well, to see what I needed to do, I just kept playing the first part until I got it right...
Its a tight squeeze! I have to reset about 20 times before I got it all right (as Greece).

Rough stuff, that immortal...
Anyhow, after the initial portion, I have not reset, but I am considering this another learner game.

In the end, I had to do an immediate axe rush, instead of after a bit... my 2nd city was founded by copper, and my Phalanxes (6) went on to crush Ethiopia... The neighbor who had been taking advantage of my depleted status after the later axe rushes was Hannibal, and he respected my authority more... plus I managed to get the GLH.

I am now in the process of killing Hannibal, thousands of years later. Vikings have subjugated Catherine and Ramesses... so this could end up pretty tight. The other major force is Rome who has Byzantine and India as colonies at this point.

Anyhow, after this "practice game", I need to give Greece another shot. Pericles is pretty cool.
 
So basically your strategy thinking is: "I have a hammer. I'll just keep on hitting everything until I accidentally hit a nail and succeed." :)

Startscumming (playing a forced high-risk high-reward strategy and alt+qq'ing if it fails) won't improve your game. Thinking what might be the best way to go and then try out if it indeed turns out to be a good choice will. If you can win 90% of Emperor games without using cheese or repetitive strategies you should win at least ~30% of Immortal games.
 
The obvious advice would seem to be wait a bit and build and few cities before attacking. Then do it with horse archers or catapult + mace/elephant or something, rather than just axe/chariot/sword/whatever you can get soonest.

I am playing immortal now (occasional success) and it seems to be more reliable that way - rushes seemed to stop working for me after Emperor too. Some posted games show immortal and even deity level rushes but I don't know how they do it. I suspect it requires a lot of trees chopped to get the rush army built in time before the AI gets too strong.

Anyway, 6 cities can build 3 times as many soldiers as 2 cities right?! Also you have more time to pick a target and play diplo a bit rather than simply choosing the nearest soft neighbour. Sometimes those guys can be handy to keep around. At least a bit longer anyway :D
 
I did manage to pull a successful axe/sword rush on Immortal, while I was just seeing how that difficulty was like when I made the jump to Emperor. Now that I've started to make the move to Immortal, the major change, based on the first couple of games are barbs are more prevalent (but still not horrible) and that the AI builds their cities quicker and finish their wonders sooner. It's not a huge jump (I manage to make it to tech parity prior to CS), but you can definitely notice the difference.
 
The obvious advice would seem to be wait a bit and build and few cities before attacking. Then do it with horse archers or catapult + mace/elephant or something, rather than just axe/chariot/sword/whatever you can get soonest.

I am playing immortal now (occasional success) and it seems to be more reliable that way - rushes seemed to stop working for me after Emperor too. Some posted games show immortal and even deity level rushes but I don't know how they do it. I suspect it requires a lot of trees chopped to get the rush army built in time before the AI gets too strong.

Anyway, 6 cities can build 3 times as many soldiers as 2 cities right?! Also you have more time to pick a target and play diplo a bit rather than simply choosing the nearest soft neighbour. Sometimes those guys can be handy to keep around. At least a bit longer anyway :D

Inefficient axe rushes don't work on immortal and deity. If you fail a rush, think what you could have done faster to get more axes in less time. Learn to rush better and it will work.

The problem with a brute strength rush is that the AI can outproduce you. You can get more cities, but so will the AI, and if you do not follow a blocking/REXing strategy, you will be overwhelmed. The other problem is that once you have more than 2 cities, you are losing commerce overall without sacrificing production for commerce, and it will put you further behind economically.

So your choices are a brute timing attack, abusing mobility, or abusing siege.
 
Also, AIs are quicker to fill the voids left after a successful rush. Even if the rush itself works, you may end up making things worse.

Rushing one AI while choking 1 or 2 more against high-level bonuses to keep this from happening is a tall order... and diplomacy may be more important than early gains anyway.
 
I'm kind of curious, it seems to me that it much less feasible to be able to grab either Steel or Rifling from Liberalism on Immortal and march into the AI's territory while they have neither. This is something that is usually possible on Emperor, but it seems that the AI tech pace picks up a good bit (although not as much as I anticipated). If you had to choose between building your invading stack with cannons/maces or rifles/trebs, which in general is better and why?
 
People get steel or rifling and use it against AIs that lack them on deity. Immortal is doable to the point that even tech-poor players like me can manage it.
 
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