Empires should be more multi-ethnic in nature

[polypheus]

Sorry if this has been discussed but I haven't been able to find out how nationalities will work in Civ5. I am familiar though on how it works in Civ4 of course.

Maybe its too late for the main game but what I would like to see perhaps even if in a mod would be that nationalities of conquered cities not be changed over time to your own nationality especially when conquering large cities (unlike in Civ4 where over time, the nationality of your cities changes completely over to your empire's nationality).

In fact, I'd like to see "foreign" nationalities in an empire's city actually not decrease but GROW under certain circumstances. Civ4 empires were all far too unrealistically ethnically homogeneous. I'd like to see that change with mechanics for immigration, emigration, and permanent, even growing national minorities and minority rebellions and such!

One way to do this would be that culture, instead of spreading or changing borders, spreads emigration! Think about the US Southwest. It was inside Mexico's borders. However, the US culture was so strong, citizens of American nationality was growing inside Mexican lands of Texas, etc. Then these Americans rebelled against Mexico and took over the Mexican "tiles" in Texas! And as we know afterward these American Texans petitioned to join the main American "Civ".

Well it would be great if Civ5 mechanics (or at least a mod) would simulate something like that! Much better than the Civ4 mechanic where culture simply takes over tiles directly!

Also I think that by having conquered nationalities be permanent, it would really introduce a realistic impediment to empire growth. Unless you are are running the right "civics" for example, if you cobble together a large empire but form it out of conquest of many nationalities, there should be some penalties in terms of your empire's "stabillity" which other nations can exploit such as helping the oppressed minorities of your empire rebel, etc, etc.

Also these permanent ethnic minorities would play a major role in how you have to govern your Empire and also your foreign relations.

 

[Chalks]

I'm not sure if the nationality of a city was ever intended to be equated to race.

Immigration is also not necessarily linked to ethnicity at all.

 

[civ_king]

He was linking nationality to nationality. Btw I have met hispanics who are more american than most rednecks


Apologizes on bad capping, I am on a phone

 

[civ_king]

He was linking nationality to nationality. Btw I have met hispanics who are more american than most rednecks


Apologizes on bad capping, I am on a phone

 

[polypheus]

I'm not sure if the nationality of a city was ever intended to be equated to race.

Immigration is also not necessarily linked to ethnicity at all.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I'm not talking about "race" at all. Also I have no idea what you mean by "Immigration is also not necessarily linked to ethnicity at all".

I am simply talking about the "nationality" concept of Civ4 being tweaked and expanding its game-play possibilities so that "foreign" nationalities in your empire can rebel or cause other problems in your governance depending on "civics" or foreign relations.

I was also talking about having nationalities move across borders.

Simply put, I was hoping that instead of the homogeneous makeup of Civ 4 Empires that Civ 4 Empires would be less so depending on how your Empire expanded, your "civics", you and your neighbors cultures, etc.

Civ 3 and especially Civ 4 introduced the concept that your population can have a mix of different nationalities. I was hoping that Civ 5 could expand on this concept further!

 

[Duke Leto1994]

well, we could always have the slave feature from Civ III...

 

[CyberChrist]

I am simply talking about the "nationality" concept of Civ4 being tweaked and expanding its game-play possibilities so that "foreign" nationalities in your empire can rebel or cause other problems in your governance depending on "civics" or foreign relations.

You already have this in cIV - represented by culture. In fact you will experience extra unhappiness in cities that have a strong cultural presence of nations you are at war with.

I was also talking about having nationalities move across borders.

There are cIV mods that spreads culture(nationality) in varying amounts from nation/city to nation/city depending on Open Borders, trade routes, civics, religion, etc..

 

[Suho1004]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I'm not talking about "race" at all.

But you did mention race/ethnicity in your first post (emphasis added by me):

In fact, I'd like to see "foreign" nationalities in an empire's city actually not decrease but GROW under certain circumstances. Civ4 empires were all far too unrealistically ethnically homogeneous.

Ethnicity does not equal nationality, and vice versa. Ethnicity is not modeled at all in Civ (except for some unit graphics, of course). What you see in terms of the percentages in cities is how many people identify with a certain nationality or culture.

If you didn't mean to talk about race, well, that's a different story. Like CyberChrist said, we already have those mechanics in Civ4 (at least this part: "foreign" nationalities in your empire can rebel or cause other problems in your governance depending on "civics" or foreign relations).

 

[Chalks]

But you did mention race/ethnicity in your first post

Ethnicity does not equal nationality, and vice versa.

What he said. There is a difference between ethnicity and nationality - since Civ 4 already models nationality I assumed you were proposing something different.

The proportion of foreign culture in your border cities does increase over time, and it can cause them to rebel.

I don't really understand how what you are proposing is different what you currently have.

The definition of a nationality is the nation to which you belong - as the population of a city rises due to new people being born in the city, it does not make sense that they would some how belong to a different nation.

 

[Trias]

Immigration is also not necessarily linked to ethnicity at all.

How come? Immigration is one of the biggest factors in the spread of different ethnicities over the globe.

Dealing with ethnic diversity in your civ, could potentially be an interesting gameplay mechanic. It is present to some degree in civ4, but not that much because it only becomes a factor when you are at war.

(I also generally believe that the effects of civil unrest should be more severe than they are in civ4. In civ4, you can have large part of your civ be unhappy, with only a relative minor hit to your economy. The model used in previous civs, where unhappy cities would be completely unproductive, maybe was a bit severe, but there should be a middle road.)

I would also welcome a good immigration mechanic. That again sounds like something that could be interesting form gameplay POV.

 

[Chalks]

How come? Immigration is one of the biggest factors in the spread of different ethnicities over the globe.

Dealing with ethnic diversity in your civ, could potentially be an interesting gameplay mechanic. It is present to some degree in civ4, but not that much because it only becomes a factor when you are at war.

(I also generally believe that the effects of civil unrest should be more severe than they are in civ4. In civ4, you can have large part of your civ be unhappy, with only a relative minor hit to your economy. The model used in previous civs, where unhappy cities would be completely unproductive, maybe was a bit severe, but there should be a middle road.)

I would also welcome a good immigration mechanic. That again sounds like something that could be interesting form gameplay POV.

I think you have overlooked the word "necessarily" in the text you quoted.

If you really want me to answer your "how come?" the answer would be the fairly obvious "it is possible for me to immigrate to a country that is the same ethnicity as me".

 

[Trias]

If you really want me to answer your "how come?" the answer would be the fairly obvious "it is possible for me to immigrate to a country that is the same ethnicity as me".

Actually, it is not since a country does not have an ethnicity. Only people have an ethnicity, and it is something you necessarily take with you when you migrate.

 

[Chalks]

Actually, it is not since a country does not have an ethnicity. Only people have an ethnicity, and it is something you necessarily take with you when you migrate.

The people in a different country can have an ethnicity that is the same as my own.

Are you intentionally missing the point?

A single nationality can have multiple ethnicities, and a single ethnicity can have many distinct nations.

The two things are different.

 

[Trias]

The people in a different country can have an ethnicity that is the same as my own.

Are you intentionally missing the point?

A single nationality can have multiple ethnicities, and a single ethnicity can have many distinct nations.

The two things are different.

Obviously. And of the two, your ethnicity is the thing you take with you when you migrate. (Permanent migration, usually involves naturalisation and thus change of nationality.)

 

[Chalks]

Obviously. And of the two, your ethnicity is the thing you take with you when you migrate. (Permanent migration, usually involves naturalisation and thus change of nationality.)

And your original question was "how come?" when I said they weren't always linked...?

 

[Suho1004]

Obviously. And of the two, your ethnicity is the thing you take with you when you migrate. (Permanent migration, usually involves naturalisation and thus change of nationality.)

But permanent migration does not necessarily involve naturalization. I have lived in Korea for nearly 15 years now and have permanent resident status, but I still maintain the nationality of my country of origin. I don't know how much longer I will stay in Korea, but even if I were to stay here the rest of my life, I would not change my nationality.

But it's not just me. There are plenty of people who live their entire lives in another country and never naturalize. So you can't say that someone doesn't necessarily take their nationality with them when they emigrate/immigrate.

 

[Trias]

And your original question was "how come?" when I said they weren't always linked...?

Yes, and that question still stands.

If the game models both migration and ethnicity, the two mechanics need to be linked.

 

[Suho1004]

If the game models both migration and ethnicity, the two mechanics need to be linked.

That's where Chalks and I disagree with you: we do not believe the game models ethnicity, we believe the game models nationality, or at the very least cultural identity.

[Edit: Um, didn't mean to speak for you there, Chalks. If I misrepresented you, please feel free to set the record straight.]

[Edit2: Also, Trias: read my post just before yours, where I address this issue. Just in case you missed it in the hustle and bustle. ]

 

[Trias]

But it's not just me. There are plenty of people who live their entire lives in another country and never naturalize. So you can't say that someone doesn't necessarily take their nationality with them when they emigrate/immigrate.

?

That is exactly the thing that you can say. As your example shows, it is possible to take your nationality with you when you migrate. But it is also clearly possible to not do so (unless your from Maroc and it is legally impossible to change your nationality). So you clear can say that someone doesn't necessarily take their nationality with them when they migrate. The immigrant basically has a choice. (I know in the real world this is some times more complicated.)

The migrant however does not have a choice in taking his/her ethnicity with him/her.

 

[Trias]

But permanent migration does not necessarily involve naturalization. I have lived in Korea for nearly 15 years now and have permanent resident status, but I still maintain the nationality of my country of origin. I don't know how much longer I will stay in Korea, but even if I were to stay here the rest of my life, I would not change my nationality.

But it's not just me. There are plenty of people who live their entire lives in another country and never naturalize. So you can't say that someone doesn't necessarily take their nationality with them when they emigrate/immigrate.

That's where Chalks and I disagree with you: we do not believe the game models ethnicity, we believe the game models nationality, or at the very least cultural identity.

[Edit: Um, didn't mean to speak for you there, Chalks. If I misrepresented you, please feel free to set the record straight.]

[Edit2: Also, Trias: read my post just before yours, where I address this issue. Just in case you missed it in the hustle and bustle. ]

Note that I responded to Chalks's original comment that migration and ethnicity are not necessarily linked.

Also, nationality and cultural identity are two very different things. In fact, it makes much more sense to equate ethnicity with cultural identity. (Ethnic groups that do not have a distinct cultural identity are not interesting from the perspective of modelling game mechanics.)