Encampments ?

[spfun]

That restriction doesn't seem to kick in nearly as often as you would think. More often than not, you are struggling to find the time/hammers or the right spots/tiles to build them.

That still leaves the opportunity cost of not getting something else first, but it feels like you get a lot of good stuff and could make up for it in saved production for units, fewer units needed to defend, great generals, active research, or housing.

read post #53, explains my reasoning to why the restriction is important, around that 10 pop range where you've got a industrial/commercial/campus/holy(got a religion) and are really struggling with housing to get more pop to build anything else as your still in the mid game and no where near neighborhood districts. I've seen this numerous times already. You probably want an entertainment district at some point and looking at 16 pop which is a late game city to get a potential encampment and that would mean no theater district so culture victory out the window. Opportunity cost is very high for encampment.

 

[Promethian]

read post #53, explains my reasoning to why the restriction is important, around that 10 pop range where you've got a industrial/commercial/campus/holy(got a religion) and are really struggling with housing to get more pop to build anything else as your still in the mid game and no where near neighborhood districts. I've seen this numerous times already. You probably want an entertainment district at some point and looking at 16 pop which is a late game city to get a potential encampment and that would mean no theater district so culture victory out the window. Opportunity cost is very high for encampment.

Commercial and Campus are not assumed. All the LPs I've seen they have only 2 or 3 campuses. This is when they are ending the game and tech progress never felt slow. The only district I see being made in every city is industrial because production is the bottleneck for everything. More than one holy site is also unnecessary unless you intend to go for a religious victory. Its easy enough to spread religion in your own cities and you only need 2 apostles to unlock beliefs.

 

[ExemplarVoss]

The harbor and encampment are the better 2 districts to build? That's what I'm taking from 'less opportunity cost', I disagree. Not counting unique district civs, you can only have 3 districts in a size 7 city. To reach 10 or 13 pop you are severely limited by housing until mid-late game, unless your playing Germany/Kongo or a Unique District civ. Most late game cities I have seen are only 16-20 pop each. Give me an early industrial/commercial/campus any day, the archers I rush out in the early game I can still have around in late game as its 1UPT and the AI have no clue how to play by this ruleset. If i want to conquer another civ I don't need help from encampments/harbors, these can be better utilized to provide more science/gold/production etc... Commercial and campus get some crazy strong policy bonuses in the mid game, and I'll need production to build anything so the industrial is important with the regional effects they provide. And these provide great engineer/merchant and scientist points respectively, which are normally quite strong.

Well, no, that isn't what I meant by less opportunity cost. Campus and holy sites are very focused, the harbor and encampment very much less so. For example, being severely limited by housing is lessened by the encampment and harbor build trees, as they provide housing. You can also get production/food out of them, which also helps. But like all the districts, I'm not suggesting them in every city. But I don't think holy sites and campuses belong in every city either. Cities are going to have to specialize early on. And while industrial zones are going to be the most ubiquitous, and entertainment complexes probably the least (but strategically placed for overlapping zoo AoE), you're going to want to diversify, and encampments/harbors are some of the best ways to do so. Maybe as a second district rather than the first (which to me should be campus and theatre to get the research trees chugging), but an encampment will help produce a crazy production city with an industrial zone, and harbor, commerce and right luxuries (and maybe even a sea wonder) will make a giant mountain of money.

But if you're not building a commercial district and an adjacent harbor in the same city (and have a river next to the commercial district), you're really missing out.

 

[UncleJJ]

Firstly as a bit of an aside most of the LPs I've seen spend far too much effort building industrial districts in weak cities with no mines or quarries. This is probably bad play. Industrial districts and the workshop have a poor return on hammers if they have no adjacency bonus in the early game. Expansion cities can often spend 250 hammers building the district and workshop to get only 2 hammers per turn for an upkeep of 2 gold. That is a terrible rate of return in the early game, only the 2 GE points could justify that but why build the district here rather than another city. Later in the game when factories become available with their area bonus and 3 envoys have been put in some industrial city states building an industrial district up to factories is much more worthwhile even in weak production cities. In high production cities with 2 or 3 mines for the adjacency bonus the industrial district is very useful early. and only gets better later on.

Encampments have not been used properly in any of the LPs since at Prince difficulty makes warring against the AIs too easy. We probably have a distorted view of their usefulness. At higher difficulty and with more aggressive AI there could be a much more serious military challenge. Encampments and the GG points they make will be much more relevant then. The barracks gives 1 housing and 1 production for 1 gold upkeep which can be useful in some situations. The encampment is probably a useful district in inland cities built to grab 2 or 3 luxuries but unable to build the aqueduct for housing. Building some farms and the encampment on a junk tile like desert could give enough housing and production to make the city struggle on until neighborhoods allow better growth. That city will never be great but the luxuries or strategic resources it grabs can be essential for other cities to grow and prosper with amenity bonuses.

One odd thing that I am curious about is whether substantial amounts of gold can be made by building units and then disbanding them. In one or 2 LPs disbanding a scout seemed to give 45 gold. This could be used to exploit the bonus from military city states which applies +2 hammers to encampments building units. Is this the most cost effective way to turn hammers into gold? Also it is unclear what constitutes a "unit", is this only certain military units or do they all get it (i.e. land, naval and air units) and are civilian units included. If settlers, builders and traders get the hammer bonus encampments could be significantly better value.

 

[rpgalon]

Commercial and Campus are not assumed. All the LPs I've seen they have only 2 or 3 campuses. This is when they are ending the game and tech progress never felt slow. The only district I see being made in every city is industrial because production is the bottleneck for everything. More than one holy site is also unnecessary unless you intend to go for a religious victory. Its easy enough to spread religion in your own cities and you only need 2 apostles to unlock beliefs.

This is annoying me so much, even if the numbers on campus buildings and adjacency bonus science looks to be relevant, in the actual gameplay, they are almost useless and actually a setback, just compare a campus district focused let's play with any of the FilthyRobot let's play, where he completely ignores districs other than industrial and commercial and go for early 8+ cities, he gets the same science as the guy who went for campus districts and totally outclass them in everything else.

I actually find the culture tree far more important than the science, the impact a police have in your game is HUGE, like the 100% military production cards, the 50% settler card, the +2 charge builder card, the extra envoys from an early new government, border expansion, just a straight HUGE impact.

The only impact science has looks to be military units and industrial district. and even being one era ahead in military tech doesn't even look that good, the upgrades are like +10 strenght but doubles the production cost and maintenance of the units.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Campus is very strong.

Housing is not that hard to get even in the early game as farms give 0.5 housing and from what I see the LP are pretty poor at developing their land. Encampment can provide +1 housing from the start and +2 housing with all buildings built which is 2/3 of its population requirement so it only need 1 or 2 housing from outside sources. So it do not have that huge opportunity cost.

Strength matters alot +5 difference is pretty big so even if the samurai is more expensive then the legionary it is a better unit because quality is what matters.

 

[homan1983]

Also remember guys that an encampment is a tile that has a city defence applied to it, before the unit can be attacked the camp defences need to be smashed. So imagine a strategically position encampment with Archers inside. Not only do archers get amazing bonuses for being in districts (1 upgrade alone gives +10str to both melee and ranged) but also the archer inside are immune from attack since the encampment needs to first be destroyed.

The archer inside can take out enemy archers without fear of counter-attack. And in Civ6, I have noticed when doing a ranged vs ranged attack, the defence is no longer the enemy's ranged str but their melee strength.

So a 15melee/25range archer attacking another archer is not (unlike civ 5) 25 vs. 25 but 25 vs 15. A +10upgraded archer will vs 35 vs 15.

 

[Furycrab]

I'm just trying to take an objective look at the campus without my CiV eyes.

Campus is 1 per mountain and 1/2 per Rainforest or Other district unless you are Brazil. (You do NOT get half points, and you cannot combine another district with a Rainforest)

Also gives you one GS point, and one Science citizen slot.

The first building you get is the Library... It gives you +2 science, 1 GS point, 1 slot. That's it... No % modifiers. No bonus per citizen. Doesn't fill a requirement for the National College. Universities or Research labs later also don't give huge modifiers.

Compare that to the Barracks, which now gives +1 production, 1 housing, 1 GG point and 1 slot, and +25% exp gain on units. Even if you ignore the military advantages... Early game when you are just scrambling for housing before Neighborhoods, or Hammers to do stuff for inspirations or eurekas... I think the Campus might be the one with too high of an opportunity cost unless it gets a substantial adjacency bonus (+2 minimum, likely wanting at least 3 to be truly worth building early)

Even if you don't agree with the case I'm making here... I can make almost the exact same case against the Industrial Zone, the Commercial Hub, or the Theater district (the Theater district is especially bad if you don't have wonders in the city). I can't imagine a city where all of the above will have better/perfect spots on the map that you would never want to build an encampment.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Nobody would build their districts for housing only.

A library produce nearly the same amount of science as 3 citizens and with Hypathia it produce more science then 4 citizens. A campus district that produce 2 science from adjancecy bonus also produce nearly the same amount of science as 3 citizens so that campus + a library is roughly worth 6 citizens and the great people points make it even more valuable.

Campus + library allow one specialist to work the campus for 2 extra science which again is nearly the same as 3 citizens.

So campus + library + specialist = 8-9 citizens in terms of science
+ 2 great scientist points + the ability to produce project for extra GSP.

And that is just the early game. In the late game a campus can give over 30 citizens worth in science just from buildings alone.

Sumeria have a huge science advantage because they can build ziggurats. 3 ziggurats give the same science as above and may give culture as well.

Housing is not that hard to get as 2 farms provide 1 housing.

Theater district (the Theater district is especially bad if you don't have wonders in the city)

Very wrong. Wonder give 0.5 culture I think. Now a great work of writing give +4 culture and +4 tourism and that is the true source of theater district power.

 

[mnf]

I think the reasons many LPs neglect their land is because they're still not used to the Builder system. In Civ V as the turns progress you find less and less reason to train more workers, but that's not the case in Civ VI. Once the game is out, and streamers are playing at their suitable difficulties, we'll probably start to see improvement housing contributing significantly more often.

The way I see it is that I'd want an Encampment in each of my production cities so my troops all get the EXP gain, but for my non-production cities that may already be struggling to build all the districts it wants, wouldn't it be better to just let the city stagnate until Neighborhoods? Not to mention, there are buildings that give bonuses to any city in range, making the corresponding districts even more valuable.

If I have the production, I'm going to be building units here, so an Encampment regardless of my housing situation.

If I don't have the production, I won't be building units here, and most of the time would be spent just building all the other districts I want and the buildings inside them. Even if I build the Encampment and get an extra pop or two out of it, those pops are just going to be working my land, and I'd imagine all my best land plots would already be worked by now, meaning those extra pop are better if they can work district buildings. So in the end I'm going to prioritize the other types of districts and the buildings inside them, and only after all that, if I still have nothing to build, then I build an Encampment. I guess.

 

[redwings1340]

I feel like there will be times I'll want an encampment. If I'm rushing lots of units in the midieval era or later, I will almost certainly want an encampment and military buildings for them. If I have a city near the edge of my borders, and it's about to become under heavy assault from an enemy force, getting an encampment and walls for extra defense seems useful (though that would take a lot of production). If I'm playing peacefully and have good natural defenses, I probably won't want one, because another district will be more useful in that case.

Encampments will have their uses, but you'll need to take advantage of them somehow to get them to be good. It's definitely for aggressive or reactive play, don't build it unless you need it.

 

[Furycrab]

You convert this all into "citizens worth of science". Like if I convert other bonuses into something that gives me a Eureka or inspiration I wouldn't have otherwise gotten in time, do I get to say that one housing is worth x citizens of science? There are also just as many cards if not more that improve production by % modifiers, if anything, you get the production ones sooner than the ones that improve adjacency or science buildings. It feels like you are trying to confuse the issue.

It's like if I said... Ok so Citizen slots are worth 3 citizens worth of Science in a campus vs 10 citizen worth of Culture and an immeasurable amount of production since it could be on a city where that citizen couldn't get an extra hammer. It's 2 science vs 1 hammer/1 Culture, with cards that can improve either.

I don't know whats optimal, much less for every civ, but I feel we need to challenge a LOT of preconceptions in this game. Like in 5 if you had a tile improvement that read... +2 science, vs one with +2 hammers... You would probably go science at some point because eventually the stacking modifiers means it's more like 4 or even 6 vs 2. That's simply no longer the case... and better yet you can build something that'll give you a Eureka which in turn amounts to an insane amount of science.

You might be right in that campuses with 2 or more Adjacency become a priority to build first and fast, but I don't think it'll be as obvious or as ubiquitous as it was in 5 that anything that comes at the cost of later science is completely objectively worst, and IMHO the early encampment makes a very good case for itself.

 

[Xiuspirit]

They might be important in multiplayer to keep other players from raiding your districts, because - no reason. And a well placed encampments could avoid somebody even declaring war on you. I'd much rather plunder the guy with Campuss district on our border, than the one with an encampment

Higher difficult AI receives a flat combat bonus against you(!!), a well trained army may be a necessity, as is an encampment at a military chokepont.
But from observing pre-release players vs Price AI, I pretty much agree.

Can't wait to get my hands on the game

 

[Vaclac]

They seem quite powerful defensively if you can set them up at choke points where they exist. I can imagine forward settling a city and putting an encampment in it to keep other civs out of an area, then proceeding to back-settle that area. Or if you are going for a victory that leaves you weak militarily, if you can funnel the AI into attacking your encampment city, you should be pretty effective at holding them back even with a weaker military. The irony is that I think encampments might be more important for peaceful than militaristic play. If you are planning on emphasizing military you will probably conquer new land, making any encampments you've made now longer on the frontier, negating much of their value.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Only part of their value is defense (and the warmonger won't be using the defense)

The warmonger will be using the other part of their ability...unit production. You want encampments at every unit producing city because
-bonus experience
-cheaper combined troops (corps/armies)
-militaristic cs unit bonuses
-easier to produce units with strategic requirements

 

[redwings1340]

Yeah. If you're a warmonger you'll want encampments in your high productions cities. If you're playing peaceful and are near a warmonger you'll probably want them on your outlying cities. If you're trying to be peaceful but under the threat of war from multiple sides, you may want one in your capital or second city, but probably won't want too many.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

You convert this all into "citizens worth of science". Like if I convert other bonuses into something that gives me a Eureka or inspiration I wouldn't have otherwise gotten in time, do I get to say that one housing is worth x citizens of science? There are also just as many cards if not more that improve production by % modifiers, if anything, you get the production ones sooner than the ones that improve adjacency or science buildings. It feels like you are trying to confuse the issue.

In most cases if you plan ahead well you can grab the eurkas along a certain path. More raw science will in pretty much every case mean faster teching. And faster teching mean you reach stuff like the industrial districts faster. Some eurkas may require you to waste prodution on unneeded stuff in order to get science and campuses generate great scientists who can give several eurkas each

It's like if I said... Ok so Citizen slots are worth 3 citizens worth of Science in a campus vs 10 citizen worth of Culture and an immeasurable amount of production since it could be on a city where that citizen couldn't get an extra hammer. It's 2 science vs 1 hammer/1 Culture, with cards that can improve either.

I don't see what the vs come from. What I showed was that a campus even in the early game can ge a very big science boost. If you want to you can get both the encampment and the campus. In most cases campuses will help your production due to unlocking the industrial district and its buildings earlier.

I don't know whats optimal, much less for every civ, but I feel we need to challenge a LOT of preconceptions in this game. Like in 5 if you had a tile improvement that read... +2 science, vs one with +2 hammers... You would probably go science at some point because eventually the stacking modifiers means it's more like 4 or even 6 vs 2. That's simply no longer the case... and better yet you can build something that'll give you a Eureka which in turn amounts to an insane amount of science.

I have not said science is overpowered. However campus will in most cases help your science rate. And having good science rate is a good thing.

You might be right in that campuses with 2 or more Adjacency become a priority to build first and fast, but I don't think it'll be as obvious or as ubiquitous as it was in 5 that anything that comes at the cost of later science is completely objectively worst,

Don't think you need to rush for science either.

early encampment makes a very good case for itself.

That applies to the campus and holy district.

 

[Galbias]

They don't look terribly useful, though I'll probably still get at least 1 in most games. The increased EXP gain rate seems kind of weak, the main benefits would be strategic defensive value (like other people have said, this is harder to see on Prince) and GG points.

 

[Promethian]

They don't look terribly useful, though I'll probably still get at least 1 in most games. The increased EXP gain rate seems kind of weak, the main benefits would be strategic defensive value (like other people have said, this is harder to see on Prince) and GG points.

You should look more closely at the promotion trees. Every unit type has a simply insane bonus available at promotion 4. Bonuses like attack twice, stealth, increased range and the like. Watching the LPs though I rarely see a unit even get to promotion 3, let alone 4. That bonus xp can result in major unit power if you play right.

 

[isau]

I also think the Encampment might be required if you're playing Tomyris to get two horsemen for the price of one per her LUA.