End Arquebus spam

[Neomega]

I know FFH2 is in feature lock, but I was thinking maybe other mods can try to incorporate one or more of these ideas:

1. Make arquebus -25% str when attacking across a river or from sea (wet powder)

2. Make arquebus -20% str when fighting outside friendly territory (powder re-supply)

3. Make spring a spell that has a chance (50% ?) of removing flaming arrow, and giving the "ruined powder" promotion to arquebus (-25% str)

4. If a civ loses its gunpowder supply, all of civ's arquebus receive "ruined powder promotion"

5. Arquebus should have a penalty (-25% str) when attacking forest/jungle/ancient forest, (But not defending) since they are less accurate than bows and arrows, and were set mostly for block formation firing, to produce a wall of lead.

6. Arquebus can maybe start with vulnerable to fire, since their powder certainly would explode if they were hit by a fireball.

Of course, I wouldn't suggest all of these, but one or two of them might be nice to make champions still relevant in the late game.

 

[Tlalynet]

2. Make arquebus -20% str when fighting outside friendly territory (powder re-supply)

This would be really interesting. 2 and 6 would probably be the best way to make them less appealing on the offensive.

1 wouldn't really change peoples decision to build them most the time, as you can avoid crossing rivers ect.

TBH I don't see arquebus much even when the AI's are fielding several types of national units. Do you mean to make them less desirable for the human or the AI? Arn't they weaker than mithril champs?

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Same strength as mithril champs, no melee bonus, 50% higher cost.

But who really cares about comparisons to mithril.

 

[Neomega]

They are 1 better than mithril champs with flaming arrow, and in the end game it is all the AI builds... they also ignore city fortification bonuses. Also, they can't rust like mithril.

They are the standard unit, both defensively and offensively, in the late game.

Also comparing melee bonus is kind of apples and oranges, because champions don't get a bonus vs archery, if you see what I mean.

 

[Onionsoilder]

They are 1 better than mithril champs with flaming arrow

Mithril Champions are two better with Enchanted Blade.

and in the end game it is all the AI builds... they also ignore city fortification bonuses.

Only palisade/wall fortifications, which Shadowwalk also negates.

Also, they can't rust like mithril.

True, but archery units can't take Guardsmen, and thus your mages are vulnerable to assassins.

They are the standard unit, both defensively and offensively, in the late game.

Arquebus can't take City Raider, so I disagree about being the standard offensive unit.

Also comparing melee bonus is kind of apples and oranges, because champions don't get a bonus vs archery, if you see what I mean.

Yeah, but the fact that Arquebus cost 50% more isn't a non-issue.

 

[Neomega]

Mithril Champions are two better with Enchanted Blade.

and every combat star for arquebus, with flaming arrow, is .2 stronger.
Mith w/ enchant 10.8 12.6 14.4 16.2 18
Arquebus w/ arrow 10 12 14 16 18
so at 4 star, arquebus more powerful - draw

Only palisade/wall fortifications, which Shadowwalk also negates.

pfft, shadow walk. Unless you have sh

True, but archery units can't take Guardsmen, and thus your mages are vulnerable to assassins.

I make arquebus w/ guardsmen. (I build up warriors, then upgrade).
Rust wreaks havoc on champions, guardsmen or not.

Arquebus can't take City Raider, so I disagree about being the standard offensive unit.

City raider is worthless in the field, however, marching arquebus are supreme, especially if they march on hills.

Yeah, but the fact that Arquebus cost 50% more isn't a non-issue.

It always seems to be a non issue in the games I play, both AI and myself. I guess it comes down to the whether 4 warriors are better than 1 champ argument floating around here. If you have the massive cash to support a larger army, you can afford the massive cash to upgrade better units, to sustain a larger army. Fielding an army outside your borders is usually 2 gold per unit.

 

[Emptiness]

I guess it comes down to the whether 4 warriors are better than 1 champ argument floating around here.

7 Warriors for the cost of 1 Arquebus. Sooner or later someone will insist that building them is pointless...

 

[ushram]

7 Warriors for the cost of 1 Arquebus. Sooner or later someone will insist that building them is pointless...

 

[Breunor]

I tend to have a mental debate - when I do the math, I like the Arquebus, but in practice I tend to like Mithril Champions. I do think it is the city raider ability and generally greater flexibility; however, I think the really smart way is to get both of them in the 'proper' proportion which comes down to how much city attacking vs. open attacking/defending you do.

I admit that I thought arquebus' should have some sort of building requirement but I guess this comes down to the AI's inability to understand them. As it is now, if you play against the AI, the 'ideal' time to hit the AI is before they get arquebuses because they do knwo how to build them and they can be spammed.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Tlalynet]

A mix of Arquebus and Champs would make best use of the defensive strike ability, sadly the current AI seems to timid to attack anything most the time so I don't know how to make use of defensive strikes anymore.

Rust wreaking havoc on champs is a good point, still it seems like your problem is more that the AI spams them than that they are so much more desirable isn't it Neo?

@ Emptiness,

The warrior balance problem is specific to Iron era melee units, there comes a point where a weaker unit is unlikely to score a hit, and mitrhil era units are there. That problem should be arising at Iron, but it doesn't because of bronze weapons. Try sending scouts against Rangers and you can see the difference.

 

[DaveGold]

The arquebus should be a high quality end game unit as it comes from a high cost 'dead end' tech and a rare resource. As it stands at the moment they are strong units but weaker than the national units coming from comparable technology. I don't see a balance problem personally.

 

[Mailbox]

I think I've mentioned it before but I like the masses of gunpowder units that appear in the later game. It is a real show of progress in Erebus and nothing else in the world really gives that feeling of "this is starting to become less of a fantasy world". Maybe it is just my personal taste but the world changes when gunpowder shows up and that change is revolutionary on armies. I suppose you could argue that the first guns weren't that great but being realistic here would mean adding several techs past blasting powder, something best left to a modmod.

 

[Onionsoilder]

and every combat star for arquebus, with flaming arrow, is .2 stronger.
Mith w/ enchant 10.8 12.6 14.4 16.2 18
Arquebus w/ arrow 10 12 14 16 18
so at 4 star, arquebus more powerful - draw

Actually they're both strength 10, so it goes like this:
12 14 16 18 20 22
11 13.2 15.4 17.6 19.8 22
So with Combat V, they're equal. However, it's unlikely your entire army will be made up out of level 6 units, unless you're Calabim. But since we're including promotions... What about Shock/Cover? Those deduct 40% from your enemy, so a Mithril Champion with Combat V, Cover II against a Arquebus with Combat V, Shock II would be 18 v.s. 17.6, in favor of the champion.

pfft, shadow walk. Unless you have sh

I'm guessing you meant to say "unless you have shadow mana", but I don't really get the validity of this statement. Unless you want me to refute "unless you have enchantment mana" or "unless you have entropy mana" to the flaming arrows/rust argument. True, Entropy and Enchantment are generally more valuable than Shadow, but you don't need to keep Shadow Mana, just give Shadow I/II to a few mages. It's enormously powerful too, since Blur negates First and Defensive strikes.

City raider is worthless in the field, however, marching arquebus are supreme, especially if they march on hills.

How are arquebus stronger on hills?

It always seems to be a non issue in the games I play, both AI and myself. I guess it comes down to the whether 4 warriors are better than 1 champ argument floating around here. If you have the massive cash to support a larger army, you can afford the massive cash to upgrade better units, to sustain a larger army. Fielding an army outside your borders is usually 2 gold per unit.

Erm... okay? So you're saying that 10 Arquebus are better than 15 Champions because they're cheaper and you pay less maintenance on the Aqruebus, or something like that?

 

[esvath]

I think I've mentioned it before but I like the masses of gunpowder units that appear in the later game. It is a real show of progress in Erebus and nothing else in the world really gives that feeling of "this is starting to become less of a fantasy world". Maybe it is just my personal taste but the world changes when gunpowder shows up and that change is revolutionary on armies. I suppose you could argue that the first guns weren't that great but being realistic here would mean adding several techs past blasting powder, something best left to a modmod.

That is exactly why I don't like gunpowder and its corresponding units

And that is exactly why I am rather upset that Malakim (one of my fav civs) have a gunpowder-based hero! What is the lore behind Teutorix, anyway?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think all we really know about him is that he advocates "curing vampirism" with bullets.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

I think I've mentioned it before but I like the masses of gunpowder units that appear in the later game. It is a real show of progress in Erebus and nothing else in the world really gives that feeling of "this is starting to become less of a fantasy world". Maybe it is just my personal taste but the world changes when gunpowder shows up and that change is revolutionary on armies. I suppose you could argue that the first guns weren't that great but being realistic here would mean adding several techs past blasting powder, something best left to a modmod.

This actually fits the lore in that as magic becomes more common the power is diluted. Magic is not infinite and the more that use it the less there is to go around. That's one of the reasonings behind only having 4 archmages.

 

[Emptiness]

However, it's unlikely your entire army will be made up out of level 6 units, unless you're Calabim.

... who don't have access to the Arquebus anyway, so your point still holds. Massive quantities of level 6 units on both sides is highly unlikely. Comparing them around the Combat III mark (level 4) is probably more realistic.

How are arquebus stronger on hills?

I think he means that this will give them the +25% for being on a hill. It's not that they have any special bonus on hills, it's that being on hills will make them harder targets.

Of course the same is true of Mithril Champions, so I'm not sure where he's going with that reasoning. Yes, city raider won't help non-city-assault combat, but then when I think of an offensive unit I think of a unit that is going to be attacking a city. Or at least a unit that is going to be attacking. I'm fuzzy on how a defense bonus that would apply to either unit makes the Arquebus a better attacker.

 

[Neomega]

I think he means that this will give them the +25% for being on a hill. It's not that they have any special bonus on hills, it's that being on hills will make them harder targets.

I thought arquebus had a hill bonus.


and I concede.

 

[Emptiness]

Ah, I see. They don't, but they do have defensive strike (30% chance, 15% damage cap) which can be nice (but of course only on defense).

 

[Angel-Julia]

I never see Arquebus myself (in standard/big, normal speed, imortal games), normally the game is over long before anyone gets even near that tec. I'm normally off conquering the world with axemen etc long before that, then mopping up with champoins(or whatever research line i chose to go up depending on the race).

I normally initially go up two paths, the magic OR religious OR catapult(if playing non magic/religious civ) and then one type of offencive unit (often recon, horse, or meele). the Arquebus just arnt on my main tec paths, and so have never been built in my games. the AI dont specialise their research as much as me, and dont cottage as well, so normally they are researching all the low lvl tecs while i've raced up one branch. the AI research soooo slowly that i cant even imagine them getting as far as Arquebus.

so in all honesty i dont know anything about Arquebus, and how powerful they are. anything that far down any research line should be powerful enough to win the game, though the game is normally won long before that with whatever path you chose to specialise in.

I guess i should play a builders game one day so i can hang around long enough to see AI with Arquebus, though i'd probably get bored and quit before then