[GS] England v Phoenicia - let's do it

[acluewithout]

England and Vicky. Phoenicia and Dido. Discuss.

My thoughts:

• I love - LOVE - having two unique Harbour Districts in the game. Just awesome.

• I am looking forward to capturing all of Dido's Cities with Vicky and getting free RNDs. Dido's healing could in theory make that hard, but that depends on the AI not being cheese.
  
  
• Overall, Dido is going to be stronger than Vicky as a naval Civ. Dido gets a straightforward production boost to all Naval units (although England may get a few extra hammers in a few coastal cities). Dido gets extra Trade Routes without much hassle. And Dido can manage loyalty much, much better.
  
  
• Vicky, on the other hand, gets some random free naval units - maybe, if it settles cities etc. England gets a very buggy temporary +1 movement (FXS, you need to fix the movement bug). And England gets some extra Great Admiral points. It gets some extra gold on foreign continents and maybe some extra trade routes, but isn't as robust with loyalty and Dido gets the trade routes more easily and reliably.
  
  
• (Unique Units are probably a wash - Dido has a more powerful UU but its a melee unit and perhaps comes too early, whereas England's got the Sea Dog which is a funny UU to say at least.)
  
  
• I don't really see a lot of gameplay overlap with Dido and Vicky though. Dido is about pushing for very early expansion. I think you sort of delay expansion a bit with England, and have a slightly more industry focus via WotW when you do. In other words, I don't think Dido makes Vicky less "fun". They're sort of riffs on the same idea (coastal cities, aggressive expansion, and trade), but have very very different timings.
  
  
• Separately, on WotW, I still like England's UA, but I do think it'll prove to be a little tame in practice. It seems like there will be lots of policy cards to boost resource production or lower costs, so that part of England's bonus may not be that significant (a bit like how China's +1 Builder Charge isn't that powerful anymore given all the different ways other players can get extra charges). England's power bonus may be cool, but probably is only slight. Perhaps England's Engineers should be able to boost construction of IZs? Or maybe RND should give bonus production to naval and land melee or you can purchase RND with gold?

 

[bbbt]

I think part of the reason for the significant revamp for England - giving the focus on industrialization etc - is they knew Phoenicia was coming as the colonizing, trading civ also with UD harbors

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think part of the reason for the significant revamp for England - giving the focus on industrialization etc - is they knew Phoenicia was coming as the colonizing, trading civ also with UD harbors

Yeah. I kinda feel like England's extra trade routes were taken away so Phoenicia could have them.

 

[Ziad]

Yeah. I kinda feel like England's extra trade routes were taken away so Phoenicia could have them.

I find new England's bonuses a lot more thematically appropriate overall so it works out.

Eleanor might have had something to do with it as well, by the way.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I find new England's bonuses a lot more thematically appropriate overall so it works out.

Yeah, there are more consistent with Victoria's England aka Britain. Trade Routes would've been more 1600 and 1700s.

 

[Sagax]

Yeah. I kinda feel like England's extra trade routes were taken away so Phoenicia could have them.

And British museums taken away so that Sweden could have them

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Early snowball vs midgame tempo.

Settler spam vs militaristic colonization.

And British museums taken away so that Sweden could have them

England was robbed!

But that's okay, because I adore Sweden's suite of uniques.

 

[Archon_Wing]

So we basically liquidated England.

Poor Victoria.

 

[acluewithout]

Yeah. I kinda feel like England's extra trade routes were taken away so Phoenicia could have them.

I really like how England’s trade routes will be implemented now. Much more interesting than the double route stacking thing.

I also do think England may have been reworked in part to differentiate it from Phoenicia. And I’m okay with that - it’s good having multiple Civs that riff on the same mechanics or themes.

I also like how we now have more of a mix of “Civs with extra trade routes” (England, Phoenicia) and “Civs with better Trade Routes” (eg Spain, Netherlands). And then a few Civs which have both (eg Persia).

I do think there are just lots of areas where various Civs or mechanics are missing some little touches. Norway, Spain and Netherlands are good examples - I think they’re all really fine, but perhaps they do just feel a little unsexy. Maybe they need a tweak / buff not really for balance, but just so they feel a bit fresher or more relevant (Netherlands may get that anyway via IZ changes). I think England might still benefit from a bit more tweaking, but maybe not if they could just sort out the +1 Movement.

The real kicker for both Phoenicia and England is whether coastal cities and sea trade are seriously buffed. Here’s hoping.

England was robbed!

But that's okay, because I adore Sweden's suite of uniques.

Sweden’s British Museum is way better (more fun) than England’s ever was. That said, I’d love the British Museum brought back as a Wonder.

 

[Furycrab]

We have any info on England in GS?

No talk of Didos loyalty game? Expand aggressively with no initial regards, and then shift gears and move your cap around to go on a loyalty problem free conquest spree, baiting dows from opponents who are just annoyed at you settling in their face in order to avoid stacking grievances against you.

 

[AmazonQueen]

We have any info on England in GS?

No talk of Didos loyalty game? Expand aggressively with no initial regards, and then shift gears and move your cap around to go on a loyalty problem free conquest spree, baiting dows from opponents who are just annoyed at you settling in their face in order to avoid stacking grievances against you.

https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/9yuw5g/the_updated_english_empire_in_the_gathering_storm/

I'm guessing that England, Mali and Phoenicia will usually get roughly the same amount of extra trade routes each game but its easy for Phoenicia to get those extra trade routes and potentially Mali can get more. England will have to work hard for them.

 

[Ziad]

We have any info on England in GS?

No talk of Didos loyalty game? Expand aggressively with no initial regards, and then shift gears and move your cap around to go on a loyalty problem free conquest spree, baiting dows from opponents who are just annoyed at you settling in their face in order to avoid stacking grievances against you.

Haha yep it's gonna be hilarious.

Phoenicia is gonna focus on settlers, harbors, and military units in the early/mid game. Settle far and wide aggressively (with or without some conquest) to snowball (pick up an easy Free Inquiry).

England has shifted to a more conservative gameplay in the early game developing a strong set of core cities. Later on you expand outwards and colonize to fuel your core cities.

I like how they split their gameplay in such thematically appropriate ways.

 

[acluewithout]

I’d forgotten about Mali’s Trade Routes. And Mali also gets buffs to their routes.

I think England, Phoenicia and Mali will all require quite a lot of set up to work. With England you can take your time, but with Phoenicia you might really need to rush to get everything out. I expect all three will be fairly inefficient Civs. England’s WotW will also be a bit of a pain, because you may be building dams well before you can rush them with your Engineers.

 

[Ziad]

With Phoenicia you might really need to rush to get everything out.

Not necessarily. Having a bonus does not mean you should be negligent. It is going to be more efficient to follow a normal path with sufficient infrastructure and military in a core set of cities.

This will give you a solid base of expansion from which you can launch your settler spam.

 

[acluewithout]

Actually, yeah, maybe.

You probably don’t want to spam too many settlers before you have at least one Cothon, otherwise you’re wasting hammers. But building a few early cities will work, and then you can grab territory later because you know you can deal with the loyalty issues then.

 

[DWilson]

I'll be intrigued to see if conquering cities meets the first city requirement. It specifically says founds, so you would think not. In that case, I hope founding one after conquering one doesn't bug it out and give nothing.

I'm really excited for England because they feel overall more well done thematic British (which is what they truly are, rather than just English alone).

Phoenicia also just feels like you're trying to establish a collection of far spread traders, while being able to adapt yourself to the game. It sounds quite fun to me.

 

[bbbt]

Workshop of the world - with it's iron and coal additional and bonuses to military engineers - is basically setting up England as the premier railroad civ.

Which sort of oddly means they'll be the best placed to start gaining bonus gold on overland trade routes instead of just sea ones.

They'll definitely be the best civ to play for playing a ''builder" game with all the new civil engineering additions.

 

[acluewithout]

Workshop of the world - with it's iron and coal additional and bonuses to military engineers - is basically setting up England as the premier railroad civ.

Which sort of oddly means they'll be the best placed to start gaining bonus gold on overland trade routes instead of just sea ones.

They'll definitely be the best civ to play for playing a ''builder" game with all the new civil engineering additions.

England should be fun, but I’m not convinced WotW will be that powerful. It seems like there will be a lot of military cards that lower resource requirements and boost resource yields, so England’s buff there may not much matter. Getting Military Engineers will be a gaff, and by the time you get them they’ll likely not be that useful - you’ll probably have built all the Dams you need (given the risk someone will snipe you and build one on the same river), and I just don’t think canals and railways will be worth the effort if you’re playing efficiently (surely you’ll just run international trade routes from one coastal city?). The bonus power yields might be good, but that’s it.

Which is all fine. I wasn’t asking for OP. Just fun.

Really. I can’t see any Naval or Coastal Civs ever being that powerful really.

 

[Casworon]

Im really liking the England rework! Think they might even be my first civ to play.

Its true that their playstyle was absorbed by other civs so its cool they made some changes to make them thematically unique again

 

[Victoria]

Free ships? What is that all about?
The power thing is lame and inaccurate. England discovered factories, it should be about getting them earlier. That is equally ineffective in the overall game but at least accurate.
RNDY? Ok we have one but primarily we were a great ship building nation because of early industry and world trade.
Extra resources? Well there is some validity if you transition that to tin mines, best they can do and is ok. No extra storage but more to sell and faster to build during shortage... and can maintain more.
So to me England has a weird dockyard that spams admirals, has nice off continent adjacency but in essence no additional MP. A rubbish industry value, stupid extra ships, an ok trade route amd good resource stuff.
It has one of the worst starts in the game, reliance on harbours and walls and a bugged naval MP issue that has been there forever.
At least it’s not Georgia but it’s still bottom 3. I guess someone has to.

England's got the Sea Dog which is a funny UU to say at least

It is in fact OP... build an amada of them and you end up not using it because your naval maintenance becomes too high and there is no competition left.