Enter the new Arabia

Since Arabia is focused on amassing wealth, and since their caravans spread religion more effectively than other civs, I imagine that church property or Tithe will be quintessential founder beliefs for them.
 
Since Arabia is focused on amassing wealth, and since their caravans spread religion more effectively than other civs, I imagine that church property or Tithe will be quintessential founder beliefs for them.

Isn't there a belief that gives science for cities converted as well? I imagine those would work together very well too.
 
I'm dissapointed that there's another civ with a religion unique. Religion is a gameplay system that is all in or nothing. If you invest into faith, you want to get the most out of it. There's no way to just go "halfway" there to get a specific bonus. Since it's a fight/investment to staff (?) off all those foreign missionaries, you can't just sail along. And religion doesn't get you nearer to victory anyhow, it's a system that runs alongside those victory conditions. So any uniques that forces you to go into religion to get the most out of it, takes away options how to play this game. So I'd rather have less civs that have one bonus in religion, not more. And especially not Arabia since Songhai already requires you to go for religion...

But I guess the bonus is okay, as the two UA bonus help each other out. Your religion spreads farther and you get more gold out of it (as bigger range = higher probability of a more lucrative trade route). So it is a good UA.
 
mitsho, how does playing Songhai require you to go for a religion?
 
The Mud Pyramid Mosque is a temple replacement. All the temple does is give you faith which is marginally useful for buying Great People later on, but only really helpful if you have a religion.

Funnily enough, the Mud Pyramid Mosque doesn't give a faith related bonus at all, so doesn't help you with religion either... It's a wasted bonus since the shrine and temple would normally be very low for me on the building list for conquered cities.

It's not like it requires you to go for a religion, but it has less impact otherwise. The return-of-investment ratio is quite low for the UB.
 
I'm dissapointed that there's another civ with a religion unique. Religion is a gameplay system that is all in or nothing. If you invest into faith, you want to get the most out of it. There's no way to just go "halfway" there to get a specific bonus. Since it's a fight/investment to staff (?) off all those foreign missionaries, you can't just sail along.

It's hardly all or nothing... You get 4 bonuses (equivalent to 4 social policies), and 1 enhancer of your choice (defender of the faith obviously, if it's available) for establishing a religion, spreading it to your 3 other cities for peaceful Tradition game (and maybe passively to a couple of neighboring CSs or cities of a non-religious civ.) That is: ~30 faith for the pantheon, ~500 faith for the first two great prophets (another 500 faith for a great deal on your 3rd great prophet). This is a total of ~500 faith (equivalent of 500 gold, or half of a GP however you want to look at it) for 4 social policies of your choice, as opposed to 3 social policies of someone else's choice. For a total commitment of 500 gold or half a great person? That's a ridiculously good deal.

Religion ALWAYS pays off in terms of opportunity costs (not to mention you get to build the Grand Temple, which is amazing for tall empires, only if you have a holy city). Going all-in on religion is a strategy, and it will pay dividends, but there's no need to do it for religion to remain effective, especially if your empire's faith output cannot compare to the AI's (say, if you're going tall peaceful).

I typically do not play a faith-based civ, and on Immortal, I can still guarantee a religion with 4 total buildings (shrine + temple in capital and 2nd city) and not using a faith-pantheon. The first shrine you'll want anyway for the cheap pantheon, so it's 1 more of the cheapest buildings, and 2 temples worth of hammers. I don't have any problems with keeping my religion alive in my civ, and I don't try to spread it to any civ who is not both a) neighboring me, and b) does not have a religion. At most, if a religion civ starts next to me and he's turning into a great neighbor, then I will build one inquisitor and move him around to block my ally's missionaries (while not giving him open borders).

The religion is very helpful. Arabia's bonus, with certain founder beliefs, will pay even more dividends, without the requirement of religion spread or diplo penalties (Peace Loving, Tithe, World Church). Very nice.

Arabia is now an empire with all bonuses (Bazaar, Trade Routes, passive faith spread using trade routes) geared toward going tall, instead of wide. It's a huge change, but very synergistic.
 
What I mean is that Religion is a side-route. It doesn't help you getting closer to any victory. It may give you bonuses that help getting there, but it's an indirect route. It's a system that is tacked on.

You are correct that these can be very powerful, but most beliefs need a later investment to get the most out of it, take reliquary for example. Some are unbalanced (the gold per believers one), some would be even stronger (the gold on city converted). Keep in mind that I play with a balance mod that removes/adapts the overly strong ones (f.e. Defender of the Faith) and I feel (not sure on it though) that the AI are more competitive in regards to religion.

That said, early game investment into religion isn't the end of it, these require attention way into the game. And as bonus snowballs, sometimes it can be worth more to quickly rush that neighbouring city state and get the culture for conquest + a good city site. So when you get around to religion, the good bonuses may already have been taken...

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a weak bonus for Arabia. Actually I'd say it's a strong one and you point out why, I just don't like that more and more civs get some religion attached to it.

And frankly, I don't always feel like wanting to play a religious game (and I maintain that it's not a good idea to do "just a little bit of religion").
 
The Mud Pyramid Mosque is a temple replacement. All the temple does is give you faith which is marginally useful for buying Great People later on, but only really helpful if you have a religion.

Funnily enough, the Mud Pyramid Mosque doesn't give a faith related bonus at all, so doesn't help you with religion either... It's a wasted bonus since the shrine and temple would normally be very low for me on the building list for conquered cities.

It's not like it requires you to go for a religion, but it has less impact otherwise. The return-of-investment ratio is quite low for the UB.

ah. yeah, i wouldn't consider that forcing you to get a religion because of the great people (and also the benefits from not founding a religion).

i get what you're saying about feeling forced to found a religion, and to really make the most of any of the civ's unique features, but i think it's more enjoyable to not worry so much about making use of every single benefit every time you play a civ. like, you can't always make sure that wars happen at the optimal time for your UUs (or you have the right resources, or the terrain is correct).

and, in particular, arabia's UU and UB (and the non-religious half of the UA) are powerful enough on their own to give some interesting possibilities.
 
I have a question: let's say you founded Islam in Mecca and built the Grand Temple in there. Then, you decided to establish an International Trade Route between Mecca and an AI city (e.g. Constantinople) will you spread your religion at 4x the normal rate? I mean, if the regular is 10 pressure, Arabia doubles it to 20 and the Grand Temple doubles it to 40 pressure, right?
 
I have a question: let's say you founded Islam in Mecca and built the Grand Temple in there. Then, you decided to establish an International Trade Route between Mecca and an AI city (e.g. Constantinople) will you spread your religion at 4x the normal rate? I mean, if the regular is 10 pressure, Arabia doubles it to 20 and the Grand Temple doubles it to 40 pressure, right?
The first point here is does the grand temple have effect on international trade routes or not?
If yes then I think it depends on the interpretaion of "double" in the line ...Arabia spreads religion along Trade Routes at double the normal rate.
It could mean +100% religon pressure (still with a base of 10 religion pressure) or the base of religion pressure is altered to 20. For the first case the Grand temple (assuming its effect is +100% too) just adds another 10 and Mecca's religion pressure will be 30. For the second case the base is 20 and with the additional effect of the grand temple the religion pressure will be 40.

But what I think is that the grand Temple won't effect ITR's. (And if it will the case of religion pressure 30 is probably true.)
 
Yeah, I know the developers said that Arabia and India were getting "slight" changes, but Arabia's is a pretty big frickin' change. India just got a tourism bonus with the Mughal Fort :rolleyes:
 
The first point here is does the grand temple have effect on international trade routes or not?
If yes then I think it depends on the interpretaion of "double" in the line ...Arabia spreads religion along Trade Routes at double the normal rate.
It could mean +100% religon pressure (still with a base of 10 religion pressure) or the base of religion pressure is altered to 20. For the first case the Grand temple (assuming its effect is +100% too) just adds another 10 and Mecca's religion pressure will be 30. For the second case the base is 20 and with the additional effect of the grand temple the religion pressure will be 40.

But what I think is that the grand Temple won't effect ITR's. (And if it will the case of religion pressure 30 is probably true.)

Oh, I forgot that the % bonuses on civ add and not multiply, of course, it is 30 pressure, 50.4 with Religious Texts and Printing press. Yeah, I don't really know if it affects, I certainly hope so!
 
Byzantium and Arabia will be rival religious powerhouses!
Funny how these things happen to reflect history sometimes.:)
 
If India was one of the Civs with the "biggest" changes (other than France) then that may mean nothing for the Dutch :\
 
I understand you can play the game any way you choose but I see you do this for numerous changes... Why do you always say you are going to do changes before even trying the new mechanics? What if they are horribly overpowered with both of those?

I was going to say the same thing (as I usually do). People can mod the game however they please, I'm sure some just mod away opponents or give themselves ridiculous Civ4-like bonuses. But to announce it in a forum, esp. pre-release, as if it means something is just weird.
 
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