[GS] Envoy AI cheat?

[Kayak06460]

1. Levied CS army of 5 swordsmen and 1 archer for 765 gold. I had 6 envoys, Georgia had 3.
2. Declared war on Georgia.
3. Georgia somehow immediately added 7 envoys to CS and became suzerain.
4. I lost CS units.
5. CS declares war on me.

Can you bank envoys or is this just an AI cheat?

 

[Icicle]

You can bank envoys. Just close the window telling you to place them. I end up banking envoys a lot since if you aren't taking suz or getting to a certain bonus level there's no real point in placing them.

The AI does bank them a lot and will usually save them just to screw you over, but they aren't infinite or created out of nowhere afaik.

 

[Abaxial]

I generally bank envoys - at least 2-3 so I can quickly switch back a CS that gets flipped. But sometimes I find that an AI civ has invested 15 or more envoys in one CS, and I do wonder where they all came from.

Flipping control of a CS that you have just levied is standard practice for the AI and very annoying. It would be wise to have at least two more envoys than you strictly need before you levy.

 

[Victoria]

Can you bank envoys or is this just an AI cheat?

It is not an AI cheat.... the question comes up quite often. I have checked the game_influence.csv log quite a few times and can track when an AI gains an envoy (influence) and when it uses it. In the file snapshot below you can see on T280 civ 6 dumping a lot of envoys (you can tell it is Hungary because they get a free envoy on suze)
You also have to remember that the Containment card is very powerful in this regard (A new envoy counts as two, if its Suzerain has different government than you). I will often save up envoys for use with it and the AI may do too, you can also see what cards they slot a policy in the AI_GovtPolicies.csv file filtering on action 'slot policy'. I just checked my latest log and to be fair from T226 to T284 no civ had slotted it but that does not mean they do not. However they would have to implement card logic for the slot and may not have done so.
They also go after quests, I have seen them very commonly getting quests.

Flipping control of a CS that you have just levied is standard practice for the AI and very annoying. It would be wise to have at least two more envoys than you strictly need before you levy.

I have found 4 more stops all but Hungary normally.
I levied Hattusa and had 6 while Poland had 0. I also had Zanzibar near my cap with 3 in it. Poland suzed Zanzibar with 4 which not only was a huge pain but also messed up my attack loyalty big time.

 

[Kayak06460]

Thank you for that explanation. I didn’t know we could save envoys.

 

[jddods]

I too save envoys. And just did the very same "cheat" against the AI last night.

 

[circeus]

It is not an AI cheat.... the question comes up quite often. I have checked the game_influence.csv log quite a few times and can track when an AI gains an envoy (influence) and when it uses it. In the file snapshot below you can see on T280 civ 6 dumping a lot of envoys (you can tell it is Hungary because they get a free envoy on suze)

Can you definitely confirm that AIs don't get automatic free initial envoys as though they were the first to meet a city-state? I could swear this happens in the early game.

 

[jddods]

haven't ever seen it but it would be pretty easy to check.

 

[Victoria]

Can you definitely confirm that AIs don't get automatic free initial envoys as though they were the first to meet a city-state? I could swear this happens in the early game.

As @jddods is says, looking in the game_influence.csv file is not hard but seriously.... you think I am lying or something. I have checked a few times and also the AI does quests so on deity for example.
The AI is way ahead of you for culture so has a lot more envoys quickly
The AI starts with 5 warriors so will meet more CS than you
The AI has more cash and production so will complete more quests than you
The AI gets a few civics free at the start of the game, if one includes an envoy then they have one at the start, but it is nothing nefarious.
....
So yes, the AI is getting more envoys than you but does not need to cheat to do so.
In most games I am the suze of over half the CS by the end of the game... so it is beatable... if you want to take that strategy.

 

[Troy Bruckner]

Also Georgia can easily get 2 or 3 envoys per envoy sent.

 

[Tech Osen]

Also Georgia can easily get 2 or 3 envoys per envoy sent.

This, Tamar's ability: Each Envoy sent to a city-state of Georgia's majority Religion counts as two Envoys.

 

[Abaxial]

In my last game, in one CS where Trajan was suzerain, I had 20 envoys, some counting double because of different governments, ran two or three successful "fabricate scandal missions" and still couldn't displace Trajan.

 

[circeus]

As @jddods is says, looking in the game_influence.csv file is not hard but seriously.... you think I am lying or something. I have checked a few times and also the AI does quests so on deity for example.

Oh crap, I'm sorry I came off like that. I genuinely wanted to know about this specifically since you were yourself (in my reading) answering a specific point.

I'm not playing at high difficulties, though so literally none of these apply to me (I mean, in theory... civ games have a long history of lying to players about difficulty levels and what the AI does behind the scene!), but I've encountered the "civ seems to have unusual amount of envoys" even when they couldn't possibly have completed most of these quests (i.e. GP recruitments, religious conversions when the civ hasn't even founded a religion...)

 

[WillowBrook]

Oh crap, I'm sorry I came off like that. I genuinely wanted to know about this specifically since you were yourself (in my reading) answering a specific point.

I'm not playing at high difficulties, though so literally none of these apply to me (I mean, in theory... civ games have a long history of lying to players about difficulty levels and what the AI does behind the scene!), but I've encountered the "civ seems to have unusual amount of envoys" even when they couldn't possibly have completed most of these quests (i.e. GP recruitments, religious conversions when the civ hasn't even founded a religion...)

@Victoria can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think each major Civ gets a different quest from each city state. So even if you have a difficult or impossible one for a particular CS, the AI civs may have easier ones.

 

[Victoria]

@Victoria can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think each major Civ gets a different quest from each city state. So even if you have a difficult or impossible one for a particular CS, the AI civs may have easier ones.

Or vice versa... however... on a standard map you are against 7 other civs so only have a 1/8 chance of getting the easiest.
This is only an assumption. I have had a barb camp destroyed by another civ and they got the quest but that is quite possibly random (bad) luck.
I have not specifically checked this area but will do so now.... The only way I will be able to spot it is if 2 civs get a free envoy for the same CS in the same era... should not be hard to find.

I'm sorry I came off like that.

NP, I understand your keeness to know but if someone asks you the same question after you have answered it it can feel a little mistrusting. Most of what we do is not intentional and we often forget that when replying including myself.

 

[Karmah]

Burst in envoys can be explained by Amani puppeteer also. Although being at war with an AI should prevents it from flipping a city state from that strategy alone.

 

[Victoria]

@WillowBrook
Yellow is my quests
In green two different civs finish a quest with the same CS showing civs have different quests
I have seen many more quests finished than this but because there is so few they may be more accidental than aiming for them.

From this I can see that turn 84 was the era change

 

[Troy Bruckner]

Oh crap, I'm sorry I came off like that. I genuinely wanted to know about this specifically since you were yourself (in my reading) answering a specific point.

I'm not playing at high difficulties, though so literally none of these apply to me (I mean, in theory... civ games have a long history of lying to players about difficulty levels and what the AI does behind the scene!), but I've encountered the "civ seems to have unusual amount of envoys" even when they couldn't possibly have completed most of these quests (i.e. GP recruitments, religious conversions when the civ hasn't even founded a religion...)

The Ai cheats more than it functions as an actual Ai, so I understand where you are coming from.

 

[circeus]

The Ai cheats more than it functions as an actual Ai, so I understand where you are coming from.

Pretty much. Civ6 doesn't seem to be as bad as its predecessor, but it only makes me more suspicious, tbh. XD (The one confirmed and unofficial I've found is that AI trade routes are less likely to get plundered by barbarians. As in, I have literally seen an AI trader move through an inhabitated barbarian camp unharmed)

I mean, designing an actual AI is doable! Stardock have managed it with Galciv (and GalCiv III has a super developped trade AI to boot. I miss being able to pay AIs to beat each other senseless in Civ...). I'd play a lot more Galciv if the annoying way they implemented those custom spaceship didn't slow my computer to a goddamn crawl.

 

[Troy Bruckner]

The Ai is really the last thing fully implemented in a game and it universally seems that programmers are tired of the project at that point and do not want to spend much time making it good. Civ has always been more about the cheat though.