Espionage Economy?

[bardolph]

I guess my testimonial didn't do much for you then...

One other thing that makes stealing attractive is that you FIRST gather the points and THEN execute the theft. You can check F4 right before you steal to see which tech is most beneficial (for trading purposes). If you research a tech, you commit to that one tech many turns before you actually get it. It may lose all trade value in those turns...

I saw that post, but I don't know anything about the initial cost of stealing a tech, before modifiers. Is it the same as the beaker cost of researching the same tech? Do invested beakers bring this number down?

Another limitation of "EP-based research" is that you have to decide ahead of time which rival you are investing your EPs into. If that rival falls into a recession, or you gain tech parity with that rival, then your remaining EPs are wasted. Also, if the desired tech belongs to a different rival, you need to switch your EP investment over to that new rival, build spies, send them there, and make sure they don't get caught.

It seems to me that the cost savings associated with tech stealing is closer to "working as intended" than "broken." It allows you to tech faster when you are behind, but it doesn't give any benefit if you're ahead. Besides, you can't ever win a tech race or found a religion through espionage alone.

 

[johnny_rico]

It should be cheaper, since you are limited in what techs you can choose, you cannot adopt the strategy if you are the tech leader, and your rivals can foil you by spending against you or capturing your spies. Also, technologies gained through technology stealing have far less trade value than monopoly techs that you research on your own.

Also, espionage point multipliers are harder to come by in the early game than science/gold multipliers.

My question is, how much cheaper is a tech obtained through espionage compared to the same tech obtained through research? I know I can play a few games and research this question on my own, but I was wondering if anyone else has already done this research.

Besides a library, academy, and a market, what others multipliers are available early. Perhaps 'early' needs to be better definied. Scotland yard is +100%, castles and nationalism yield +25% to espionage. I guess the way I play these things are usually available before universities, grocers, banks, or observatories.

I don't know all the math involved in what makes a tech cheaper to steal vs. research, I just know it is cheaper from experience. The exact math has never really interested me. Having a spy wait for up to 5 turns generates a discount plus having your religion spread to the city are additional reductions to the theft cost. Straight up though, the cost is less to begin with.

Trading hasn't been as vital in espionage oriented games for myself. One can always bulb a tech to perhaps yield a monopoly and trade it around or trade for cash with backwards civs.

Another limitation of "EP-based research" is that you have to decide ahead of time which rival you are investing your EPs into. If that rival falls into a recession, or you gain tech parity with that rival, then your remaining EPs are wasted. Also, if the desired tech belongs to a different rival, you need to switch your EP investment over to that new rival, build spies, send them there, and make sure they don't get caught.

It seems to me that the cost savings associated with tech stealing is closer to "working as intended" than "broken." It allows you to tech faster when you are behind, but it doesn't give any benefit if you're ahead. Besides, you can't ever win a tech race or found a religion through espionage alone.

This is exactly why it works better on higher levels of difficulty. You won't be the tech leader for a long time. Even a rivals recession early will outpace you unless they're being slaughtered and I don't see an AI take out another AI early too often. But your remaining EPs will not be wasted. Eventually, they will have a tech you don't. Just move a spy in and nab it. I don't know if it has been stated previously by anyone but stealing techs from smaller cities also provides a discount. Base costs on a city by city basis can be viewed in the espionage screen.

There are certain leaders in the game who tech much faster than others; they make the best targets obviously. But, they should also be fairly close by. Sending spies greater distances certainly makes things more difficult.

You are correct in saying you won't a tech race or found a religion by stealing, but with bulbs and distributing a number of EPs amongst two different civs, tech thefting can become quite powerful. Diplomacy also plays into things to try to keep certain civs with trading with others. Playing the right angles can make you the tech leader.

Once there is nothing left to steal, you can begin a transition for your economy, perhaps a CE/EE hybrid. Give it a shot, it's a fun variant to play.

 

[bardolph]

Besides a library, academy, and a market, what others multipliers are available early. Perhaps 'early' needs to be better definied. Scotland yard is +100%, castles and nationalism yield +25% to espionage. I guess the way I play these things are usually available before universities, grocers, banks, or observatories.

Monasteries grant +10% research as well. I suppose the +100% from Scotland Yard is better than the +50% from an academy, but can you have multiple Scotland Yards? Also, if you want to count civics, Free Religion gives a +10% bonus to research, and don't forget Representation. Also, Caste System allows you to assign merchants and scientists, but not spies.

In an espionage-based economy, your tech progression will be determined by your chosen rivals. There's no reason to assume that the Liberalism/Nationalism slingshot is the "optimal path," since it is impossible to achieve this with EP's anyway.

Certainly Universities, Grocers, Banks, Observatories, and Oxford all factor into this as well, and are usually available earlier than Jails and Intelligence agencies.

Another consideration in the early game is that Libraries and Markets allow you to run two corresponding specialists, while a Courthouse only allows one spy.

I don't know all the math involved in what makes a tech cheaper to steal vs. research, I just know it is cheaper from experience. The exact math has never really interested me. Having a spy wait for up to 5 turns generates a discount plus having your religion spread to the city are additional reductions to the theft cost. Straight up though, the cost is less to begin with.

Trading hasn't been as vital in espionage oriented games for myself. One can always bulb a tech to perhaps yield a monopoly and trade it around or trade for cash with backwards civs.

Of course, but can Great Spies bulb techs? I suppose you can rely on Great Merchants for this task, but if you're farming Great Scientists, then you're really talking about a research-based or hybrid economy rather than an espionage-based one.

This is exactly why it works better on higher levels of difficulty. You won't be the tech leader for a long time. Even a rivals recession early will outpace you unless they're being slaughtered and I don't see an AI take out another AI early too often. But your remaining EPs will not be wasted. Eventually, they will have a tech you don't. Just move a spy in and nab it. I don't know if it has been stated previously by anyone but stealing techs from smaller cities also provides a discount. Base costs on a city by city basis can be viewed in the espionage screen.

Makes sense. I suppose I will have to play several games and decide for myself whether or not espionage is "broken." From what you've described, it seems to me that espionage is better than research as long as you're behind and are willing to take what's available instead of choosing your own destiny. How much better is something we haven't yet established, and would go far in determining whether or not espionage is "broken." I rather like the idea that tech leaders have a much harder time holding on to that lead, since espionage allows others to catch up more easily. The question is whether or not the AI is capable of leveraging espionage.

There are certain leaders in the game who tech much faster than others; they make the best targets obviously. But, they should also be fairly close by. Sending spies greater distances certainly makes things more difficult.

You are correct in saying you won't a tech race or found a religion by stealing, but with bulbs and distributing a number of EPs amongst two different civs, tech thefting can become quite powerful. Diplomacy also plays into things to try to keep certain civs with trading with others. Playing the right angles can make you the tech leader.

Once there is nothing left to steal, you can begin a transition for your economy, perhaps a CE/EE hybrid. Give it a shot, it's a fun variant to play.

Will do

 

[Dier]

I saw that post, but I don't know anything about the initial cost of stealing a tech, before modifiers. Is it the same as the beaker cost of researching the same tech? Do invested beakers bring this number down?

I paid some attention just now in my game, and (on standard/ normal/ prince) it looks like the base cost of a tech in EPs is 150% of the cost in beakers. This holds up for horseback riding, feudalism and radio = across the ages.

Somebody here did a quick worldbuilder test and concluded that invested beakers do not lower the base cost in EPs. It was in one of those very long threads describing a game (to narrow it down somewhat ).

 

[mice]

One problem with gaining EP points is that a lot of them can go to waste on a civ that is no longer your target. how many beakers worth of EP are sloshing around in the fund unused?

 

[Dier]

That's more a perceived problem than an actual one. You want a good measure of EPs anyway so you get the passive effects. When you can see what everyone is researching, you simply adjust the EP distribution based on that information.

 

[johnny_rico]

That's more a perceived problem than an actual one. You want a good measure of EPs anyway so you get the passive effects. When you can see what everyone is researching, you simply adjust the EP distribution based on that information.

Agreed.

Mice, if you're left with way too many EPs after stealing all possible techs, you can leverage the fact that you'll be able to see what they're researching. Thus, research something else and have a spy in place (smallest city for five turns) to steal the tech as soon as he gets it.

 

[Roxlimn]

Arguably, just seeing the tech that everyone is researching is already something of an advantage. That way, you can go research something else and benefits from normal trading.

 

[bardolph]

Well, I've been sloshing around at Emperor using the "EP Economy". It's also my first game at Emperor level (as Gilgamesh), so I can't vouch for maximum efficiency. So far, it's the Medieval era, I'm second to last on the power graph, I have feudalism and construction, and the tech leader (Huayna Capac) has just discovered Nationalism.

I've found that Espionage-fueled economy is a bit cheaper than Science, but requires a lot more micromanagement, and carries its own risks.

I've also observed the espionage-based cost to be 150% of the beaker cost (as Dier said), which can be modified by the following:

• Stationary Spy Bonus (up to 50%)
• Total Espionage Spending (I've seen up to 25% in either direction)
• Distance (always a penalty)
• Trade Routes (I think it's 10% per trade route connected to your civ... I'll confirm this when I get back to my home computer)

I haven't seen any correspondence between religions and espionage costs.

Obviously, the Stationary Spy bonus is the most significant, and you should always take it if possible. This will bring the base cost down to 75% of its original cost in beakers.

If you're going all espionage and zero research, it's possible to get a substantial "espionage spending" bonus for being the espionage leader. For me, it's 15%-25%, depending on the civ. This number seems to be based on the ratio of "total spending," rather than the individual spending between the two civs.

In my observation, the Trade Routes bonus tends to cancel out the Distance penalty, but that will vary depending on the situation. A large nearby city with Open Borders is a great target for espionage.

Early in the game, Libraries provide a 25% bonus to science, and the first building to provide the same bonus to Espionage is the Castle (obtained at Engineering). Also, monasteries provide a 10% science bonus per religion, which can really add up if you have multiple religions available.

Also keep in mind the hammer investment in building Spies, the chance that the Spy will be caught before executing the mission, and the chance of failure when executing the mission itself. I find it's useful to assign spies in pairs, so that if the first spy fails, the second spy can take another shot.

Of course, building a Great Spy and launching an Infiltration mission is a great strategy, but hard to do in the Classical/Medieval era. Courthouses do indeed allow you to assign a single spy specialist, so it might take a long time to actually net that Great Spy, unless you've also built the Great Wall.

All in all, I'd say that the "Espionage Economy" is a toss-up, until you get to Castles, and later, Jails. Currency and Compass are also valuable, since they help build up trade routes and give further bonuses to your Espionage. There are definitely some discounts to be found, but it's not much better than the research bonus you'd be getting from Libraries and Monasteries.

If you commit fully to the espionage economy (0% on the research slider), you can come out slightly ahead, but the opportunity costs of spy micromanagement, inferior tech trading, and the inability to prioritize techs makes it hard to judge which is strictly better.

 

[bardolph]

Arguably, just seeing the tech that everyone is researching is already something of an advantage. That way, you can go research something else and benefits from normal trading.

Yes, but passive benefits can often be achieved without using the espionage slider.

 

[KMadCandy]

I've also observed the espionage-based cost to be 150% of the beaker cost (as Dier said), which can be modified by the following:

• Stationary Spy Bonus (up to 50%)
• Total Espionage Spending (I've seen up to 25% in either direction)
• Distance (always a penalty)
• Trade Routes (I think it's 10% per trade route connected to your civ... I'll confirm this when I get back to my home computer)

I haven't seen any correspondence between religions and espionage costs.

there is a religious discount if the target city has your state religion in it. i think the numbers are 15% if it does, an additional 25% if you have the holy city.

 

[Dier]

there is a religious discount if the target city has your state religion in it. i think the numbers are 15% if it does, an additional 25% if you have the holy city.

Heh, didn't know the specifics of that... Just to illustrate:


bardolph, you may find this an interesting read: The Thief Economy. In that thread I've seen a screenshot with 38% spending discount (page 6).

If you commit fully to the espionage economy (0% on the research slider), you can come out slightly ahead, but the opportunity costs of spy micromanagement, inferior tech trading, and the inability to prioritize techs makes it hard to judge which is strictly better.

Better? I'm just having fun...

 

[Og The Caveman]

The other day I tried this Espionage economy thing, on pangaea, standard, epic. I decreased my difficulty level to prince and chose Frederick, for his PHI/ORG traits (100% GP, cheaper courthouses). Built/chop rushed worker, worker, settler, warrior, GW, library and so on, and a couple of settlers in my second city.

I chose two tech-whores to invest my espionage points on (IIRC they were Darius and Pacal). Settled first GSpy, Built the SY with second, settled all the rest. Also built the ToA and popped a GM.

My plan was to produce huge amounts of melee troops in my non-capital cities. Still, I needed commerce and scientists to gain espionage points and beakers. But, my cities were in really bad locations. They didn't grow. They didn't produce much commerce, nor science. IIRC I had the slider at 60% research, 30% espionage, and didn't produce much gold, which I realized would be needed to upgrade my axes and swords to macemen as soon as I had stolen the techs from the AI. I did steal many techs from the AI, but had to research some of the most important techs (Civil Service, for instance) all by myself.

I left this game in the 800's, because things didn't go as planned. In fact, I realized that my plan itself had some flaws:

1) No specific plan regarding the source of espionage points and beakers. I didn't focus on my cities enough. I had some cottages, but started to build them rather late, having prioritized Code of laws and alphabet and having forgotten Pottery (I have played with SE for like 30 games prior to this and have forgotten how to cottage..). Then, I didn't have enough scientists to boost my research, which I needed to hook up the techs the AI wasn't really eager to research.

2) No gold. I had no source of gold in the game, except the slider. I built the ToA for the GMerchant points (I know, sounds a little desperate...)

3) Low difficulty level. The other civs were researchin stupid techs I didn't want and, all in all, played really badly.

I made up a solution to these problems. Firstly, in order to manage well with Esp economy, one should

1) cottage spam. One spy specialist per city in the early-mid game is enough for specialists. The slider can be set around 30% espionage, which will suffice with the Scotland Yard + increasing amount of Great spies in the capital.

2) found and spread a religion and build its shrine for easy gold. I think the gold is needed for this type of game. Because you basically won't have any techs that your opponents don't have - and therefore are not able to build more advanced troops than your opponents - you should build lots of primitive troops and when you finally steal those crucial techs like CS and Machinery, you should upgrade your army with the gold having gained from the shrine.

If you play with a civ that doesn't start with mysticism, you can still found confucianism fairly easily, by teching Meditation, Priesthood, Writing and CoL after masonry and some of the basic techs (Animal husbandry leads straight to Writing, but you'll have to research pottery after either fishing of agriculture). With meditation, you'll be able to build monasteries and spread Confucianism to your own cities and neighbours.

For the shrine you'll need a Great Prophet. You have presumably chopped the GW really early and then teched towards Code of laws. Priesthood is on the way so rush oracle for the GP points (Henge is not an option, you cannot have both GW and Henge). Alphabet is a good choise for the free tech. The first great person will almost surely be Spy, so settle it. The next one may be either Spy or Prophet (even chances), but you can increase the odds by building either a courthouse and assign a spy or building a temple and assigning a priest (Obelisk also allows a priest, and Madrassa allows two).

3) know which techs the AI prioritizes. You can invest your small amount of beakers to techs like paper-education-liberalism and steal philosophy, engineering and guilds. Avoid economics, take representation as the free tech after liberalism and research towards democracy for Security Bureaus, Statue of Liberty and emancipation. Steal Scientific method and rush for Communism.

The higher up in difficulty, the less you have to research yourself

These are my main thoughts. I played another game with Frederick (on Prince) and gained some success (haven't finished yet, its 1840 AD and my empire is looking pretty sovereign). Had Gandhi, Lincoln and Victoria as my neighbours, Gandhi grabbed London in the early game (WTH?! where have you gone, you Peaceful Gandhi...), I stole huge amounts of techs from Gandhi and Linc. Spread Confu, vassalized Victoria with maces and trebs, later vassalized Linc with trebs, cavalry and rifles (upgraded CRII-CRIII-maces). During the 1700's I was running 30% esp, 60%sci, and started to steal techs (steel, steam power) from Sitting bull when Linc was about to collapse.

My typical Prince game months back was financed by SE, boosted by Pyramids and The Great Library. My capitol used to produce gold and great merchants Civics were Representation, Bureaucracy, Caste System, Decentralization and Theocracy. I used to build maces and trebs, beeline to rifling and destroy all my opponents with upgraded riflemen. I used to grab Assembly line by mid 1700's. So, compared to this, the Espionage economy doesn't seem to be effective enough. Maybe it's more effective on higher difficulty levels, when the AI will tech everything for you while you're building troops.

 

[thadian]

espionage... i haven't really used it except for seeing what my enemies are up to, and foiling projects.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

I have never ever taken the Espionage slider off 0% in any game ever, and play at high lvls. The problem is, that the ai DOES, almost immediately they meet other nations, all ais start putting at least 10% of GNP into ...this generally totally negates the in built advantages the ai receives (over the player), in less beakers needed for techs. And when this playing field is levelled, the player wins out every single time, easily.

Occasionally, an ai will start stealing techs off me, but it's easy to work out which one is doing it, and then they die If they use their Esp Pts to behave as terrorists, (e.g. poisoning water), then again, they die One point the "Espionage Economy" misses, is that the first to a tech often gets a temporary advantage, which can often be utilized in a big way (e.g. Rifles vs previous military)...

Do I like the implementation of espionage? I'll let you guess the answer to that.......

 

[mrt144]

the real problem is that you don't lose espionage points for a failed mission. I think failed missions should reduce you EP by at least half the mission cost. The risk is losing a lowly spy?

It seems like the EE is similar to the WE in which it is situational based on your opening gambit and doesnt really making a dent until you get those multiplicative bonuses.

 

[Neo Guderian]

I tend to warmonger with this economic strategy on emperor.
My capitol is a cottages commerce/espionage engine and every other city is geared towards production.

The early game consists of moderate expansion but no warfare, unless defensive in nature.

I build the GW, and head to Alphabet.

I then steal what I can, but my slider is still geared toward science.
I build research in all my cities and tech straight to feudalism.
Then, I drop the slider to max EP's, switch all cities to military, and vassalize my nearest neighbor.

Keep 1 or 2 of their big and powerful prod cities, shrine cities, or wonder cities and gift the rest back to them.

Here is another important factor: I always found a couple crappy cities close to my capitol to gift to my vassals so that my spies are close to their destinations. Even if the cities flip back to me, I just re-gift them.

Now the fun part: You get to direct your vassal's research =). Tell them what to tech and then steal it for cheap.

Get 2 or 3 vassals like this and you're 'Empire' will outpace every other civ. Manipulate civics and religions to keep your vassals at odds with each other and with the rest of the world so that trading is less likely.

Just keep expanding, keep the choice cities, gift the rest back, direct research and choose you a victory path.

When it comes to techs like Liberalism, I'll stop military production, and research it outright while keeping my vassals working on other things.

I'll post a save this weekend for anyone interested if I get time

 

[SJN]

Here is another important factor: I always found a couple crappy cities close to my capitol to gift to my vassals so that my spies are close to their destinations. Even if the cities flip back to me, I just re-gift them.

This is truly the creepiest strategy I have ever heard. Holy Trojan, Batman!

Do you ever do this with enemies who aren't vassals? If it was landlocked, and you didn't have open borders with the enemy, the couldn't reinforce it with outside troops and you would have an easy city to spy in...

-- SJN

 

[Neo Guderian]

Oh and I almost forgot. Silly me, this is one of the most important factors about stealing from vassals. Your spies in their territories only get busted for failing spy missions, but not for being in their territory. =).

 

[Neo Guderian]

This is truly the creepiest strategy I have ever heard. Holy Trojan, Batman!

Yes, It is truly EVIL! I have used this a few times in multiplayer games (not tiny quick games however) to the angst of my oponent.

Do you ever do this with enemies who aren't vassals? If it was landlocked, and you didn't have open borders with the enemy, the couldn't reinforce it with outside troops and you would have an easy city to spy in...

-- SJN

It is rare to gift the city to a distant enemy. I have done this only once I believe and that was because I was very isolated. When I finally discovered the other civs, they were quite a ways ahead and I only had one vassal. I can't remember the outcome of that game though.

But generally, once you get 2 or 3 vassals you will collectively outtech the opposition. The real trick is to prevent your vassals from trading with your distant enemies.