Espionage...help please...

[Maben]

Just finished a LAN game with one of my friends (originally a total of 10 players) where I lost space race by 10 turns. The reason? I was easily winning in tech and production with he began "spy bombing" my cities non-stop. Most of my cities were in constant unhappiness and unhealthiness, they were going in and out of anarchy, he was forcing me to adopt civics, and eventually (to my dismay) he discovered he can also completely sabotage my space parts.

I had built as many spy buildings as I could (I had forgotten the tech for the intelligence agency however) and I was putting every single point into him. I had even started to build spies and station them in my cities as it said they somehow helped to thwart enemy spies.

What else was I to do?! I am not huge on espionage so I really wasn't used to sending spies at him myself. Would this have helped at all? Am I supposed to start using spy specialists as well?? I was literally about to win this game and my cities went to almost complete uselessness and he managed to pull ahead and win.

This has got to be the most obnoxious thing about BTS...I absolutely hate espionage but I need to learn to use it I suppose if I want to avoid this humiliating loss again. I just want to learn how to use counter-espionage more effectively so I'm not crippled in the future. I caught the majority of his spies, but it hardly mattered with the amount he was sending at me.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

That's the problem with human players, I suppose, they can can mass spy you into oblivion, while the AI seems to keep their spy numbers fairly low.It sounds to me like you did everything right, but I'm definitly not an expert in espionage. The only thing I'd ask is if you performed counter-espionage missions on him. But other than that, I don't know what else you could have done.

 

[Maben]

No I didn't do any counter-espionage. I was focusing on maintaining my own cities and since at his peak he had over twice the espionage points as I did, I was afraid that it would take too many of my own points and have too low of a chance to succeed for it to be worth it to send my own spies into his territory. Should I have just done lots of these types of missions? We are going to do a LAN game soon with 4 human players and are thinking about just not allowing ourselves to change our espionage screen, or perhaps limit the use of spies in some way. They just seem like they can get way outta hand if you focus-fire one person.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

I don't think counter-espionage missions can fail, but I could be wrong. I know they increase the cost of EPs, but don't they also increase the chance of thwarting the attempt, too?

Like I said, I'm not an expert on Espionage, it's actually probably one of my weaker points, so hopefully someone with more knowledge on the subject will post.

 

[Maben]

I don't think counter-espionage missions can fail, but I could be wrong. I know they increase the cost of EPs, but don't they also increase the chance of thwarting the attempt, too?

Like I said, I'm not an expert on Espionage, it's actually probably one of my weaker points, so hopefully someone with more knowledge on the subject will post.

Haha that's the whole reason I posted here, I'm like a total espionage noob. I have totally avoided the thing until today because like you said the computers hardly use spies, and spreading your points evenly is usually very effective. Even in my MP games I could just mass the points I had against the human players and that would usually at least allow me to see their tech research and power level on the graph. But today was the first time he decided to REALLY use spies against me and boy was it wayyyy more effective than I ever imagined. I went from being two space parts ahead of him with only one left to go (to have max parts), to launching my ship (with less than ideal parts) one turn before he reached Alpha Centauri.

 

[KMadCandy]

I don't think counter-espionage missions can fail, but I could be wrong. I know they increase the cost of EPs, but don't they also increase the chance of thwarting the attempt, too?

i think it can't fail, but you can sometimes be caught doing it. it does increase the cost of their missions vs you and also your chances of catching them. it lasts 15 turns on epic speed, so i think that translates to 10 turns on normal speed. i put signs on the map with what year i counter'd the guys i'm worried about, so that i know when to send in the girls to counter 'em again . you can also tell because it won't have a cost on your epionage screen while it's active. so if there is a cost showing there, then oops your latest one wore off!

once you're making quite a few EPs, with the buildings and all, i think it's absolutely worth it. it doesn't cost a whole bunch of EPs, even before you consider the fact that it saves you points by costing them double.

he was forcing me to adopt civics

ouch! the spies changing civics is completely overpowered imo. i only play singleplayer and i am SOOOO glad that i've never seen the AI do that. if i have cristo redentor i can totally cripple the AI if i have enough EPs. i could change to some crappy starting civics, use spies to change the AIs to them too, and then i get to change back next turn anarchy free because of the oh-so-lovely CR wonder. meanwhile they're stuck in the yucky ones for at least 5 turns, and they have to go thru anarchy to get back to the good ones if they're not spiritual. at epic speed, late game with a large empire, changing 3 civics at once can take several turns of anarchy. and then i can do it all over again the very next turn ! i think it doesn't cost nearly as much as it ought to, considering what it costs the target in anarchy to recover.

i just like to use it to make them like each other less, or more, depending on what i want. maybe i want to declare on hammurabi, he's using HR which is pacal's favorite civic. i swap hamm out of HR, instantly pacal stops giving him +5 wise civics credit, so he drops from pleased to cautious and i don't get a -1 you declared war on our friend. i'll change their state religion sometimes to make them voting instead of full members of the AP if i want to hold a vote to assign their city to its rightful owner (me, what a coincidence!). things like that i have fun with.

 

[Maben]

That's exactly what he was doing to me, he got the Cristo Redentor completed one turn before me and was switching my civics to useless ones as often as he could. My cities were already lousy due to the spies as it was, now I couldn't even use the civics I wanted! More than a few times I just sat back and said "these spies are so damn overpowered!". I will try using more counter-espionage missions in the future and perhaps I'll research the tech for Intelligence Agency sooner.

If it gets to the point where I have to start running spy specialists though I'm really gonna get angry.