Espionage is pathetic

[Lochlann]

1) sometimes AIs are nice and dont want to steal, living you with agent recruits for the rest of the game
2) sometime you have so much money that benefit is insignificant

If you have a huge tech lead, and you have so much money that there's no point in rigging city-states, and you're bored with the lack of espionage options, then go up a difficulty level. If you're already at deity, then play multiplayer.

What fyar said. Basically, when you have an overwhelming lead in X element of the game, ANYTHING that contributes to X can be viewed as superfluous and useless. This does not expose a problem with X.

If you have a huge tech lead, then certainly, stealing techs is going to be useless to you. If you have more gold than you know what to do with, then certainly, rigging CS elections will be of little to no benefit to you. The complaint that

There should be things to do with espionage when you are the leader

is flawed; there are things to do. Just, they aren't particularly helpful in this specific situation -- and that is as it should be. It is an inevitable byproduct of the player's commanding lead. A player who has both a huge tech lead and enough gold to do anything s/he wants will very rightly not have much to gain from espionage. Noting this does not reveal a flaw with the espionage mechanic.

 

[player1 fanatic]

The thing is all other game elements are fun and useful in all situations. Not only when underdog.

That why is espionage flawed from game perspective. You would think that biggest world powers dont use espionge if you would translare game mechanics to the real world.

 

[Lochlann]

The thing is all other game elements are fun and useful in all situations. Not only when underdog.

Oh, I don't think that's true at all. I don't much enjoy upgrading, building, and repositioning military forces when I know that I could stomp every other civ without half-trying. I don't enjoy maximizing & guarding trade routes, selling luxes for best prices, and streamlining city connections when I already have enough gold to do anything I want. I don't enjoy fulfilling CS quests when I know I can just buy their alliances; I don't enjoy micromanaging city screens when I know that getting the utmost food/production out of the city just doesn't matter; I don't enjoy spreading my religion when the benefits of the religion don't contribute meaningfully anymore; etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

Again, any element of the game can be criticized as superfluous, and yes as un-fun, when it no longer contributes to victory. Some people feel that superfluous espionage is less fun than superfluous artifact-hunting (for instance); others disagree. It's subjective. And that subjectivity is the point: these same things you're saying about espionage can be--and have been--said about any other game mechanic. What works for the gander also works for the goose.

 

[Yzman]

The thing is all other game elements are fun and useful in all situations. Not only when underdog.

That why is espionage flawed from game perspective. You would think that biggest world powers dont use espionge if you would translare game mechanics to the real world.

They do use it, just not for stealing techs. The US doesn't steal techs from other countries for example, we don't need it. We do however spy to get "intrigue" and other types of intel.

As you should in the game when you are leading.

 

[Gort]

They do use it, just not for stealing techs. The US doesn't steal techs from other countries for example, we don't need it. We do however spy to get "intrigue" and other types of intel.

As you should in the game when you are leading.

Well, the real-life US used all of its spies shooting Presidents to replace with friendly dictators, so it wasn't like they weren't busy

 

[Vidszhite]

Just out of interest, has anyone successfully used a spy for a coup in a CS?

It looks like an interesting option, but I've never tried it because a) the chances of it succeeding always seem too low, even with a well levelled-up spy & b) it's probably asking to be attacked by whoever the ally happens to be....

A) The chance of it succeeding is based on the gap between your influence and the current ally's influence. If it's too low, spend some gold. If the gap is too great, you might be screwed.

B) A coup almost never makes the current ally angry with you, or at least, no more than becoming the city-state's ally legitimately would. ("We are competing for the favor of the same city-states!")

 

[Atinuviel]

I feel like the Espionage mechanics in the game is actually in a pretty good place. It allows you basically free techs and plan ahead for the most lucrative theft (should you know where the city you're spying is at tech-wise), and in harder difficulties is a substantial part of your science.

Even if you're in the lead, there are still plenty of places you can use spies in: that being counter-espionage, diplomats for trading votes, and rigging votes. They've helped me secure quite a few CS in a game, gaining bonus happiness and other resources.

Of course, having more options doesn't hurt either. I was thinking that maybe there could be a "poaching" ability for Spies: have them bribe and poach talents from your enemy territories. If could either act like a "coup" button where you have a chance to fail or succeed, or an ongoing process where every few turns you gain a few Great Person points at the expense of your target city.

 

[CaptainPatch]

They do use it, just not for stealing techs. The US doesn't steal techs from other countries for example, we don't need it. We do however spy to get "intrigue" and other types of intel.

I doubt very much that that is true. Especially during the Cold War. The USSR was behind us in _most_ categories, but look who put a man in orbit first. Info on weapon designs and specs were swiped from each other on a fairly regular basis. In contrast to the game mechanics of singular techs, Real Life involves complex meshes of tech to configure more significant larger techs. Consider ALL of the tech that goes into a Titan missile: Propulsion, Ballistics, Computer Guidance, etc.

Just because we have a substantial lead in _most_ categories doesn't mean that we stop looking to see what others are doing. Maybe they figure out a more elegant way of getting something done. Maybe they develop new strains of bioweapons. It would actually be foolish to stop looking.

 

[Dralix]

Real life doesn't have a finite and known list of discoverable technologies.

 

[bluefeli]

I remember one game that I used spy to change other leader's vote. It was really big deal. The deal was to change major ideology that is not my ideology. So I sent my 2 spies to 2 leaders's cities who could vote "yea". So I changed their vote to "nay" by negotiation. So I could prevent it from a disaster. It changed everything. Because I was in revolt due to low culture by different ideology. So if i didn't send my spies, I had to change my ideology with losing many culture that was used to it. So I think espionage is a big part of strategy in civ5.

 

[CaptainPatch]

I find that spies as diplomats to change a few delegate votes in the World Congress is mostly redundant. And expensive, because NO civilization gives up control of their delegates, even if the request is to vote in a way they were planning to anyway. It _always_ costs cash, cashflow, and some resources.

The reason it's redundant is because 1) I always max out the number of available City States, and 2) I always focus on the Patronage Social Policies tree. Between successfully completing CS quests, the occasional 250 or 500 gold gifts put nearly all CS delegates in my pocket, and their total exceeds ALL of the other civilizations' delegate total combined. The cost of keeping CSs at Ally status is easily offset by their giving you their resources (which you can then sell to the other civilizations), Culture/Religiosity/Science points, military units from the Militaristic CSs (I haven't needed to build any units since the Classical era, and mine is the largest number of soldiers on the planet), and eventually the occasional Great Person unit.

Hard to go wrong with Patronage, and as a result, World Congress control is easy.

 

[Yzman]

I find that spies as diplomats to change a few delegate votes in the World Congress is mostly redundant. And expensive, because NO civilization gives up control of their delegates, even if the request is to vote in a way they were planning to anyway. It _always_ costs cash, cashflow, and some resources.

The reason it's redundant is because 1) I always max out the number of available City States, and 2) I always focus on the Patronage Social Policies tree. Between successfully completing CS quests, the occasional 250 or 500 gold gifts put nearly all CS delegates in my pocket, and their total exceeds ALL of the other civilizations' delegate total combined. The cost of keeping CSs at Ally status is easily offset by their giving you their resources (which you can then sell to the other civilizations), Culture/Religiosity/Science points, military units from the Militaristic CSs (I haven't needed to build any units since the Classical era, and mine is the largest number of soldiers on the planet), and eventually the occasional Great Person unit.

Hard to go wrong with Patronage, and as a result, World Congress control is easy.

One again, you are talking about how you are so far ahead in a particular area of the game that espionage is not useful to you. This is how this topic has been

"I am ages ahead of the AI in tech and money. I have way more techs and CS Allies than them. Why is espionage not useful for me, a runaway in the game?"

The issue has already been brought up but I guess I can say it one more time.

If you are this far ahead, the feature may seem useless. I don't know what difficulty you play at, but its time to move up. If you don't wish to move up use the spies as defense. If you don't want to use them as defense and to move up, then just don't use them at all.

Stuff in this game is situational, that is the design of it. Not everything will be useful to everyone in every game. Its a strategy game for a reason.

If I am lucky enough to get a good natural wonder or good pantheon, I will probably not build shrines and temples. That does not make them useless in the game, just useless in my situation.

If I am playing a pangea map, a navy is probably not useful to me or has very limited use. I probably won't build a large navy.

If I am very far ahead in tech and control every CS, I probably won't use espionage for that. I will probably park them in other capitals to use as a literal spy ( to see city) and for occasional diplomat that I may or may not use ( useful for tourism bonus too).

 

[isau]

I find that spies as diplomats to change a few delegate votes in the World Congress is mostly redundant. And expensive, because NO civilization gives up control of their delegates, even if the request is to vote in a way they were planning to anyway. It _always_ costs cash, cashflow, and some resources.

The reason it's redundant is because 1) I always max out the number of available City States, and 2) I always focus on the Patronage Social Policies tree. Between successfully completing CS quests, the occasional 250 or 500 gold gifts put nearly all CS delegates in my pocket, and their total exceeds ALL of the other civilizations' delegate total combined. The cost of keeping CSs at Ally status is easily offset by their giving you their resources (which you can then sell to the other civilizations), Culture/Religiosity/Science points, military units from the Militaristic CSs (I haven't needed to build any units since the Classical era, and mine is the largest number of soldiers on the planet), and eventually the occasional Great Person unit.

Hard to go wrong with Patronage, and as a result, World Congress control is easy.

IMO you need to play on a higher difficulty. If you're dominating every aspect of the game already the issue is that a mechanic designed for the underdog just doesn't apply, except that you need to defend against it.

Diplomats are hardly redundant, especially since in the earliest World Congress votes City States don't even grant votes. It all comes down to who has the Forbidden Palace and if it's not you (please don't reply and say "I always have the palace" because that will only further drive home how stacked the game you've been playing is) you better have a way to defend. I've managed to get my world religion codified despite only me and one other civ sharing it thanks to diplomats.

 

[Lochlann]

One again, you are talking about how you are so far ahead in a particular area of the game that espionage is not useful to you. ... If you are this far ahead, the feature may seem useless.
...
If I am lucky enough to get a good natural wonder or good pantheon, I will probably not build shrines and temples. That does not make them useless in the game, just useless in my situation.

If I am playing a pangea map, a navy is probably not useful to me or has very limited use. I probably won't build a large navy.

This, exactly this.

Like, Patch, take a look at what you just wrote: "The reason it's redundant is because 1) I always max out the number of available City States, and 2) I always focus on the Patronage Social Policies tree." Well...this is what YOU do, in THIS particular situation, and on this particular difficulty level. So, okay, using spies as diplomats may therefore be redundant in THIS particular situation...but that's a far cry from claiming that it is redundant in general. It is not. It is only redundant when you are so far ahead that you are able to take these things for granted, as has been pointed out multiple times.

 

[CaptainPatch]

Alright, I'll admit it. I've known for quite a few turns that there was no stopping my civilization. But as this is a new expansion, I've wanted to see how things play out all the way to the end. Which, truth be told, probably isn't all that far off and my Culture has already Influenced 3 out of the 7 remaining civilizations. Of the remainder, 3 are at Popular while the polar-opposite civilization is nonetheless at Familiar.

Next time around I'll skip the Inland Sea map and just go with my usual Pangaea. And I'll move up the Difficulty two tiers above Warlord (whatever it's called).

[Oddly enough for September, there happens to be quite a few must-have (and play) games appearing. (That appeal to my tastes, anyway.) There was Saints Row IV (adrenaline-fueling silliness), BNW, Tropico 4: The Academy (more silliness), and Rise of Venice (a financial empire builder that is nearly identical in gameplay to its Patrician IV forefather). All of these -- well maybe not the T4 expansion -- require a fair amount of time to play through. (Spent about 10 days on SR4.) As the saying goes, "An embarrassment of riches."]

 

[Yzman]

Alright, I'll admit it. I've known for quite a few turns that there was no stopping my civilization. But as this is a new expansion, I've wanted to see how things play out all the way to the end. Which, truth be told, probably isn't all that far off and my Culture has already Influenced 3 out of the 7 remaining civilizations. Of the remainder, 3 are at Popular while the polar-opposite civilization is nonetheless at Familiar.

Next time around I'll skip the Inland Sea map and just go with my usual Pangaea. And I'll move up the Difficulty two tiers above Warlord (whatever it's called).

[Oddly enough for September, there happens to be quite a few must-have (and play) games appearing. (That appeal to my tastes, anyway.) There was Saints Row IV (adrenaline-fueling silliness), BNW, Tropico 4: The Academy (more silliness), and Rise of Venice (a financial empire builder that is nearly identical in gameplay to its Patrician IV forefather). All of these -- well maybe not the T4 expansion -- require a fair amount of time to play through. (Spent about 10 days on SR4.) As the saying goes, "An embarrassment of riches."]

Here lies the answer. You are playing warlord, as was expected. This is a difficulty in which the AI is handicapped. It is no surprise many features seem useless to you. Once you bump up the game you will no longer take them for granted. In my current game on emperor ( diff = 6 for reference) I planted my first spy in Korea's capital. I have been stealing a tech every 10 turns from them.

 

[sendos]

Here lies the answer. You are playing warlord, as was expected. This is a difficulty in which the AI is handicapped. It is no surprise many features seem useless to you. Once you bump up the game you will no longer take them for granted. In my current game on emperor ( diff = 6 for reference) I planted my first spy in Korea's capital. I have been stealing a tech every 10 turns from them.

I'm surprised that they don't have a spy at their capital. Perhaps you should not push your luck. If they're ahead in tech too, that also scratches my head a bit, because top tech AI always guard their capitals with spies.

 

[Wodan]

So many times, I've had a spy in someone's capital for 40 turns, then I researched the last tech that person knew and the forty turns was for nothing.

It's not that hard to guess (with ~95% accuracy) what tech your target civ has that you don't. Well, don't research that tech!

 

[CaptainPatch]

It's not that hard to guess (with ~95% accuracy) what tech your target civ has that you don't. Well, don't research that tech!

Sometimes you have no choice. I deliberately chose to NOT research Gunpowder, meanwhile spying on a nation that did have it. The Gathering Intelligence phase was 120 turns. 100+ turns later, the ONLY tech available to me to research was Gunpowder. On turn 118, I was informed that the target no longer had anything worth stealing.

[Pitiful performance by that spy. 100+ turns = more than a century, and not able to grab one tech in all that time?]

 

[isau]

Sometimes you have no choice. I deliberately chose to NOT research Gunpowder, meanwhile spying on a nation that did have it. The Gathering Intelligence phase was 120 turns. 100+ turns later, the ONLY tech available to me to research was Gunpowder. On turn 118, I was informed that the target no longer had anything worth stealing.

[Pitiful performance by that spy. 100+ turns = more than a century, and not able to grab one tech in all that time?]

The larger question is why you allowed a spy to linger for 120 turns in a city. Well, and why you think how something plays on Warlord difficulty is good for a general pronoucement that a system is "pathetic."

Anyway if you want to find an answer to whether spying plays a role in the game, all you need to do is watch for the number of times (especially on higher difficulties) you grab a tech, think you're about to have a breakway lead, and then get the message "X has been stolen!" For some reason for me it's always Astronomy, usually stolen 10-30 turns after I get it. There are a couple of different ways to possibly defend against it, that vary with the map type even, but regardless your basic contention that spying is pathetic is wrong. It plays an important role in the game, just not always one where you are the agressor, and certainly not when the game is played in easy mode.