Spies (proposed rework in bold A WIP)
Spy Recruitment and Mechanics
Gain 100 Spy Points when you advance to the Renaissance era and eras afterward. When you hit the threshold of Spy Points, gain a Spy. This threshold is dictated by this formula:
(This is all in the current game).
| Map Size | Major Civilizations | City-States | Spy Points |
|---|
| Duel | 2 | 4 | 250 (maximum is 100) |
| Tiny | 4 | 8 | 125 (maximum is 100) |
| Small | 6 | 12 | 83 |
| Standard | 8 | 16 | 62.5 (or 62 because it's an integer [always round down]) |
| Large | 10 | 20 | 50 |
| Huge | 12 | 24 | 41.6 (or 41 because it's an integer [always round down]) |
The lower limit of Spy Points is 33.
I want to decrease it to 25. It does not affect the default settings but the custom settings of those who want bigger maps and this correlates with requiring more spy usage. You can generate Spy Points from Buildings, Policies, and Era progression (additionally modders can mess with this via dummy spy point generation but VP will not temper with it).
I want to add another generation of Spy Points: Spy Retirement System.
Spies that are killed-in-action take 5 Turns, which can be a big delay to your espionage as it also resets the rank of your spy for taking risks. There is no incentive for letting level 3 spies take risk since replacing them and upgrading them again is a big opportunity lost.
Level 3 Spies are thus however allowed to "retire." Letting a new spy take its place in 5 Turns and granting you Spy Points in doing so. This allows you to forget about the spy system as level 3 spies are fine but those who want more spying and espionage (to subvert the world!) would need to take some guaranteed risks that do not hurt opposing players. Right now Level 3 spies either feel inadequate to use or adequate to use. For those who feel they are inadequate in differences and would rather have quantity than they can retire. If they feel level 3 spies are very adequate to use and strong. Keep them level 3 as leveling up is hard!
Spies always take 1 turn to move regardless of a foreign city or an owned city. All of the delay should never be in movement.
Establishing Surveillance (Spy) or Making Introductions (Diplomat) are reduced via many means.
Establishing Surveillance and Making Introductions (Diplomat) has a maximum of base 5 turns which can be reduced to a minimum of 2 turns
- Relationship with City-State: Friends reduces it by 1 Turn, and Allies reduces it by 2 Turn.
- Relationship with Major Civilization: Embassy, DoF, Defensive Pact, Research Agreement, and Vassal State all reduce it by a turn each.
- Tourism Relationship with Major Civilization: Having Popular reduces it by 1 turn.
You are always informed when an enemy spy has moved to your Cities with a Constabulary or a Counterspy. You do not know what their allegiance is, but you will always be able to detect enemy movements in any of your Cities as long as you have a Constabulary or a Counterspy. This lets you react when necessary and not be blindsided.
| Current Spy Actions | What happens in this new System | Justification |
|---|
| Broaden Surveillance in City | REMOVED; THIS IS MOVED TO DIPLOMAT. Diplomats will always have broad surveillance as part of their bonus. | Useless, if I want to scout. I'll actually send recon units. I'm not actively looking at the tiles around them. |
| Repatriated Specialists (increase specialist yields in Capital) | REMOVED | Useless, I don't really want my specialists buffed by Espionage. I can't measure how good this action is at first glance. |
| Kidnap Specialists (reduced Specialist yields in the City) | REMOVED | Useless, I cannot measure the effect at first glance. |
| Steal Great Works | We keep those but remove the Golden Age completion bonus if we cannot find a GW. Replace with a minor Tourism siphon instead. | Formerly the Thief in VP, a good mechanic. |
| Sabotage local Tourism (steal Tourism from the City) | REMOVED | Stealing Great Works is a better form of this and not emotionally harmful. |
| Steal Technology | We keep those but remove the Golden Age completion bonus if we cannot steal a technology. Replace with minor Science siphon instead. | Formerly the original Civ 5 Spy, a good mechanic. |
| Infiltrate Science facilities (steal Science from the City) | REMOVED | Stealing Technology is a better form of this and not emotionally harmful. |
| Radicalize the Discontent(NEW) | City is sapped [always-blockaded] for 1 Turn per 2 Unhappiness (minimum: 3 turns; maximum: 10 turns). Create 1 Rebel Unit per 3 Unhappiness (minimum: 1 unit; maximum: 5 units) that join you if you are at war with this City; otherwise, make them Barbarian. | AI is to use this as an offensive measure during war-time. If you wanted the improvements pillaged, be at war when this happens and use the rebels to pillage them for you. Increased unhappiness is hard to notice the effect. |
| Arm the local populace (City enter resistance for 2 Turns and Rebel Units spawn near City) | REMOVED | See Radicalize the Discontent |
| Foment Local Unhappiness (Increased unhappiness source) | REMOVED | See Radicalize the Discontent |
| Radicalize the rural citizenry (One improvement of generic type gets pillaged, strategic improvements are pillaged and reduced growth) | REMOVED | See Radicalize the Discontent |
| Target local City Defenses (City takes 100 damage and Garrison takes 25 Damage). City is sapped [always-blockaded] for 5 Turns.) | REMOVED | See Radicalize the Discontent |
| Sabotage day-to-day operations (NEW) | Take a lump sum of gold (misdirected commerce) and faith (hopium) when completed. Otherwise, take a portion of FPT and GPT if unable to. Effectiveness diminishes and stacks if ANY City of this owner was recently sabotaged already (20 Turns). | When not in a need to steal great works, technologies, or radicalize the discontent. This is the go-to in a much-reduced form. Pretend you're bullying a major city that is a city-state! |
| Siphoning Gold from Treasury (steal GPT of City; but not reducing poverty) | REMOVED | Arguably one of the most hated spy actions to players because of how visible and easy to see what it does. See Sabotage local operations. |
| Pilfer Religious Relics (steal FPT of City) | REMOVED | Unless your City was religious, you did not see this usually damaging you. See sabotage local operations. |
Now you only have 4 options that have an easy first-glance value fitting of the 4 advisor types:
- Foreign Advisor may ask you to Steal Great Works.
- Science Advisor may ask you to Steal Technology.
- Military Advisor may ask you to Radicalize the Discontent.
- Economic Advisor may ask you to sabotage day-to-day operations.
In this proposed system, there are only two counterspy actions. No need to overthink this and try to min-max this. Have a tight network to ensure maximum counterspying or have a relaxed network.
BOTH Networks have the same effectiveness in reducing foreign spy actions. The tight network simply has a better chance to identify and kill them when it happens while the relaxed network has better yields and happiness system.
| Counterspy Actions | What happens in this new System | Justification |
|---|
| Establish a counter-espionage network. (Highest chance to identify and/or kill foreign spies). | Renamed to Tight Network as your counter-espionage network works with military espionage buildings in order to ensure tight security. Buffs espionage buildings like the Constabulary, Police Station, National Intelligence Agency, and others (highest chance to identify and/or kill foreign spies + 25% RCS) | Remains the same, just a name change + local yield buffs to buildings that usually don't get yields. |
| Make sure local Specialists are giving their best (+1 base Specialist Yield) | Renamed to Relaxed Network as your counter-espionage network operates in the shadow of your city populace and acts as a Civil Servant's assistant in order to ensure your city works at its best while noticing any misdoings (+1 Base Yield to Specialists; -25% Unhappiness Needs) | Remains the same except they reduce unhappiness needs (which can indirectly reduce the effect of Radicalize the Discontent as well). |
| Inspect the local garrison and fine-tune city defenses. (+50% RCS) | REMOVED; partially moved to Tight Network | Yeah, the city hits harder which can be useful when on the defensive... but other than that, not a lot of good opportunities, the time you realize the garrison defenses need to be finetuned, the relocating of a spy there can be painfully irritating. |
| Turn your network on the local population to bring them in line (+2 Happiness and -25% Unhappiness). | REMOVED; partially moved to Relaxed Network | A counterspy can be treated as +2 Happiness and -25% Unhappiness then. Yay, but not as valuable as a spy in a different city. |
Now in this proposed system, there are 4 ways of what Spies can do:
- Act as a diplomatic unit for City-State influence where they can coup but basically build up influence over time.
- Act as a Diplomat for a Major Civilization where they can exchange delegates and gather intrigue slowly.
- Act as a Spy for a Major Civilization where they can steal Great Works, Technologies, Gold+Faith, or Rebels basically!
- Act as a Counterspy for your own Civilization where they buff your Cities.
On another note, the siphon of yields seems to scale absurdly on the per-turn yields of the City rather than having that be the cap. Means no matter how rich a city is, you'll feel the actions of those spies very emotionally. I advocate the siphon to be a base amount scaling with the City's era (not spy's era) + spy effectiveness THAT IS CAPPED on the per-turn yields of the City. If the base amount is greater, cap it. If the cap is greater than the base amount + spy effectiveness, then they will siphon that much.
Any thoughts or do I not bother continue.
