Espionage vs. Siege

Okay, someone help me out here.

The benefit of using spies and commerce/specialists vs using siege weapons and losing few or no units?

Im nearing the end of my latest game (itsa win, just too late and too bored to finish it tonight). I had 2 wars, at the same time for part of the time, and i lost maybe 10-15 units in the process of taking... i forgot to count how many cities i got but 5-8 or so.
 
Once you have cannons, I think spies are a waste of time. Unless you are a player who tries for a big cav rush then cannons do the job just fine. As does artillery and bombers.

But before then trebs and catapults can take a long time to take down a city. And while you are taking it down it gets whipped down to a size 2 city so it hardly seems worth the effort. So spies can help at that time.

But there is a cost - you sacrifice hammers building disposable spies - seige engines are more easily reused. And you sacrifice commerce to generate espionage that could be better spent teching up to face your next rival.

Generally I don't use spies for warfare, except that I direct all my EPs that I naturally produce towards my opponent. This might give me the ability to take down a key city quickly before it is reinforced or rush a stack of cavalry units at the city holding the Statue of Zeus and drop defenses so I can take it in a single turn.

You can also get a lot of nuisance value from spies switching civics or running counterespionage operations to disrupt the AI. Pillaging key resources if they have a single source is worth it too. Often this nuisance value is more use to me than the drop defenses ability. I need the seige anyway for collateral damage and I usually like to fight with infantry so speed isn't so crucial.
 
I cant really take the "siege is slow" argument seriously. Half my army is siege units anyway so a castle wont last long enough to matter, and if im using mounted units then i spend the time pillaging until my siege catches up, something i dont get to do with rifles.

Also i dont find mounted units more vulnerable for the guy who said that. What i do is spread them out, one unit in each square (except for the main force where im hiding my siege). This means that even if i lose a unit, the offender is weakened and will die the next round. Its a good trade.
 
I cant really take the "siege is slow" argument seriously. Half my army is siege units anyway so a castle wont last long enough to matter, and if im using mounted units then i spend the time pillaging until my siege catches up, something i dont get to do with rifles.

Also i dont find mounted units more vulnerable for the guy who said that. What i do is spread them out, one unit in each square (except for the main force where im hiding my siege). This means that even if i lose a unit, the offender is weakened and will die the next round. Its a good trade.

Different priorities than me.

I never pillage if I'm engaged in conquest - I want those towns working for me! I won't leave my mounted units alone to die - a kill ratio of 1:1 isn't good enough for me - I want 1:4 at least and in practice probably get much higher - in a war where I have rifles and the AI doesn't, it might be 1:10.

I agree though that seige isn't too slow. However I can't reach a ratio of 50% seige. It leaves my army too vulnerable. A typical renaissance SOD for me might be:

10 rifles
8 trebs/cannon
4 knights
2 pikes or other older units such as crossbows.
8 muskets or maces

Usually after the first major thrust this will get split into two armies which lets me take cities quicker but means that I don't have enough seige to take cities down in less than 3 turns.

At that point an army looks like

5 rifles
4 trebs
2 knights
1 pike
4 muskets

And it might be attacking a city with 12 defenders. Decreasing the number of units I can use to attack and increasing seige means that even if I can deliver maximum collateral defenses and take down the city fast, I don't have enough units to kill all the defenders in a turn. Which means they just get reinforced the next turn and I've changed the problem from dropping city defenses slowly to one of killing slowly.

I'm not sure what the perfect balance is - but I like having a mainly infantry army. That way I don't fear counterattacks or flanking units so much.
 
I never pillage if I'm engaged in conquest - I want those towns working for me!
Strategic pillaging. Might as well get some gold out of improvements i am going to replace anyway, and cutting road connections never hurt. I dont pillage everything.

I won't leave my mounted units alone to die - a kill ratio of 1:1 isn't good enough for me - I want 1:4 at least and in practice probably get much higher - in a war where I have rifles and the AI doesn't, it might be 1:10.
I more or less agree, which is why i dont use mounted armies much. Only if i have a special unit, like the egyptian chariot or whatever.

Of course, there is the spanish horse which gets defensive terrain bonuses so thats really just a rifle with double movement.

I can't reach a ratio of 50% seige. It leaves my army too vulnerable.
How so?

There are only 2 kinds of war i get into. The kind i initiate, and the unexpected kind when im sitting at 0.2 on the power graph.

If im on the offensive the other guy is hiding in his cities. Siege attacks first, some of them die, none of my swords/rifles die when they clean up.

If im on the defensive im hiding in my cities and probably not building much siege.

I dont split my army in the middle of the war either like you do. Wars need to be quick and decisive (even if they never feel like it in turn based games), and the less units you bring to each city the more turns they have to heal up.

The benefit of lots of siege vs lots of rifles is that the rifles will never, ever lose. The only casualties will be maybe 1-2 siege units for each city taken. But this wont work if you split your army.

I'm not sure what the perfect balance is
The perfect balance is to have the bigger army. That is the fundamental rule in all warfare. You want your infantry to be as big as his army, and you want your siege to be the same size.
 
Different priorities than me.

I never pillage if I'm engaged in conquest - I want those towns working for me! I won't leave my mounted units alone to die - a kill ratio of 1:1 isn't good enough for me - I want 1:4 at least and in practice probably get much higher - in a war where I have rifles and the AI doesn't, it might be 1:10.

I agree though that seige isn't too slow. However I can't reach a ratio of 50% seige. It leaves my army too vulnerable. A typical renaissance SOD for me might be:

10 rifles
8 trebs/cannon
4 knights
2 pikes or other older units such as crossbows.
8 muskets or maces

Usually after the first major thrust this will get split into two armies which lets me take cities quicker but means that I don't have enough seige to take cities down in less than 3 turns.

At that point an army looks like

5 rifles
4 trebs
2 knights
1 pike
4 muskets

And it might be attacking a city with 12 defenders. Decreasing the number of units I can use to attack and increasing seige means that even if I can deliver maximum collateral defenses and take down the city fast, I don't have enough units to kill all the defenders in a turn. Which means they just get reinforced the next turn and I've changed the problem from dropping city defenses slowly to one of killing slowly.

I'm not sure what the perfect balance is - but I like having a mainly infantry army. That way I don't fear counterattacks or flanking units so much.

I find this hard to relate to my games in this era. You don't have enough seige in your SoD if you only have trebuchets and rifles (unless you use spies to revolt castles) and if you have cannons then the rifles are just icing on the cake and you could have already have won the war with cannons and grenadiers :confused: . You seem to be having your cake and eating it :p

I find that if I go for rifles as the breakthrough military technology then I have to accept that for 30 turns or so I will not have access to cannons since they take another 10 K beakers of research from a beeline to rifles. And vice versa if I beeline to cannons then it takes 10 K beakers to get rifles so I may as well pick up grenadiers and use those as my top troops and then I put off rifles for a longish time while I attend to economic matters. Cannons are so effective anyway that almost any troops can clear up what is left and macemen and muskets will do fine. Upgrading CR macemen to grenadiers is enough to take the toughest defender in that age when backed up by cannons. With a few cannons to bombard castles you don't need espionage to cause revolts. If cannons are your military breakthrough technology then you need to build a lot of them and only a few support troops, so your stack doesn't have enough seige.

But if you go with rifles and trebuchets then you need 9 siege to reduce castle in 3 turns. Then you need to use some trebuchets next turn to weaken defenders for any troops other than well promoted rifles (e.g. CR2 upgraded from macemen), otherwise the other units in your SoD like knights and muskets and even draft rifles will take casualties against the best defenders. So I would argue for taking at least 11 trebuchets if you want to attack on turn 3 as that gives enough spare trebuchets to soften the defenders, as it takes 25 trebuchet turns to bombard a castle to zero defence.

The only scenario I can imagine where what you are aluding to (i.e. rifles and cannons in the same stack) might occur is if you had researched rifles (say) and then traded with several AIs to rapidly get cannons as well. I don't like trading military techs with AIs as it helps them when I want to crush them. Of course at the end of the renaissance you can have cannons and rifles together and then you'll need them both as your opponents will be fielding either cannons or rifles themselves. But I am most interested in exploiting the military breakthrough of either cannons or rifles.

I don't really understand what you're getting at with the half sized stack. I would not send that against a city with 12 defenders :eek: . You list 4 trebuchets which implies that it would take 7 turns to reduce a castle to zero defence. I might split my SoD in half send a detachement that size you listed against a weak city with say 5 obsolete defenders and only walls or low culture. The 4 trebuchets would then remove the defence in 1.5 turns and a couple could soften the defenders for superior troops to finish off. Against 12 defenders or castle I would send your full stack.

Of course all games are different and even the units are different when promotions are taken into account. I am not saying what you report is wrong just that you would do better to take more seige in your stack as it would speed up conquests usually taking a city 1 turn sooner in the case of rifles and trebuchets (i.e. 3 turns instead of the 4 it should take you).

Edit: reduced estimates of beakers after looking at tech tree. Memory plays tricks on you sometimes ;)
 
Uncle JJ - my basic assumption in the war above is that it is rifles vs longbows. So my half-army can easily take a city with 12 defenders (many of which arrive while I am laying seige to the city) - but it might take a couple of turns. And that main army doesn't get split until I have crushed their army and they are sheltering in their cities. Not every city has a castle - in fact the majority of the cities I will be sweeping up don't and will be reduced in 3 turns or less. Whether this is a good idea depends of course whether I am attacking a big spread out civ with lots of cities and less infrastructure or a concentrated one with lots of buildings. In my most recent game it was the former.

Once I have rifles, I will have around 30 rifles 10 turns later - thats enough for a war. I can probably tech one major tech like Chemistry during this time - and I've probably already traded techs like Education for Engineering. So even if I don't trade away rifling or replacable parts, I am only 1 tech away from steel. I don't usually start my war with steel, but I usually get it while fighting and often by the time I split my stack I am adding a cannon or two to my forces.

I'll still have quite a few musketmen floating around - they are pretty useful to take out weak defenders and when they get good they will get promoted to rifles. Don't underestimate their presence in the stack - they are more than enough to take out the other units the AI has once the rifles have killed the longbows. Plus I will have a steady stream of rifles coming from more drafting, so there will be more units in my army healing and defending cities while the stacks continue to march.

The reason I probably find myself always short of seige is that they have to get built the hard way - whereas rifles get drafted from even the weakest cottage city. That makes my seige pervesely more valuable than my rifles (my HE city is usually building seige).
 
InvisibleStalke: My experience is that many of the AIs will build castles if they can, at least in their major cities, particularly the Protective ones. That means either using EPs and a good supply of spies or a big stack of trebuchets if you go for the Rifling as your breakthrough technology or it will take a long time to take castles.

I am well acquainted with drafting rifles :D as you might remember from my posts in your thread advocating close packing junk cities into spaces between normal cities. They were my "drafting cities" and I often draft from them several times in the first 10 turns depending on their happiness cap. I know how to raise a drafted army :)

I have revised my estimates of the number of beakers needed to research Steel from a Rifling beeline as I was quite a bit adrift :blush: but it still takes a lot of effort to get both rifles and cannons if you are at war. There are so many other techs needed to make a war of expansion. I suppose I tend to take the espionage variant and so I will have researched Constitution (for Representation in a SE and Jails) after Nationalism (for Nationhood and Taj Mahal) before doubling back to research Gunpowder and trading / researching for Machinery and Engineering and Theocracy. In the GA from Taj Mahal I switch civics to Nationhood and Theocracy and start drafting muskets while building macemen, pikes, trebuchets and spies. That is the army I use for the first conquests in the middle game. And I don't underestimate the power of drafted muskets as part of a well balanced stack ;)

The question then is should I research Rifling or Steel first to strengthen the army. From there Rifling takes about 10K beakers (including Guilds and Banking) and Steel takes about 6K beakers (since we already have Engineering). Hitherto I have always chosen the Rifling option but I am now convinced by the thread started by Mercury529 that cannons could be a better choice. Whichever is chosen I'll try to have a stash of gold to upgrade some trebuchets to cannons (costs 80 gold) and some CR3 macemen to rifles (costs 170 gold) to get a head start as well as building the troops.
 
UncleJJ:

Guilds, Banking and Engineering are easily obtainable in trade for Education and Liberalism in most of my games - and I don't mind trading those techs away so much. In fact I will probably trade even Rifling to my allies if the diplomatic situation is polarized enough (it makes a very good bribe for them to join in the war). Chemistry or Replacable parts is where I have to self research usually. To go rifles + steel then means self researching five techs (inc gunpowder). But war can start after three. To go grenadiers and cannons means self researching four techs. Not a big difference as long as you can gain the techs in trade I refer to.

I rarely go for constitution just to get jails. I can usually trade something like Chemistry for it later if I really need it. I don't find jails make much difference until police state comes around. I'd rather put hammers into theatres and colliseums which can generate massive happiness for me. And keep a pool of outdated units in my capital for HR happiness.

I appreciate your drafting experience - If I remember correctly you were one of those who sold me on it long ago. I am a definite convert now.

If I face more castles I will need more trebs or spies and might not be able to split my stack as early. However I find that once war is declared, the AI seems to whip units rather than castles - I've seen it building a castle steadily while I batter down its defenses while whipping longbow after longbow from zero hammers.
 
I mostly play with a SE and without The Pyramids, so Constitution is a key technology for me, both for jails and for Representation. I appreciate that your perspective, probably based on a CE, will be very different on this. Also since I will be using Nationhood for drafting I'll get a nice boost to EP generation. So jails give a nice passive and %bonus to EP generation. I like to get jails early and put them in all my cities.

At that stage of the game each city will get 6 passive EPs and +75% (jails and Nationhood) = 10.5 EPs output and is able to run up to 3 spy specialists whih will give 7 EPs and 4 base beakers under Representation for 2 food. A few of my bigger cities will get a castle too. That sort of EP output will rapidly gain ascendancy in espionage over most of the AIs, without raising the EP slider. Clearly my emphasis on EPs at this stage of the game is a big difference between us. I use the EPs to keep track of AI research and to cause revolts in any cities with castles (unless I have cannons). That is an effective combination for a SE using Representation, Nationhood, Slavery and Theocracy before and during Warmongering.
 
Back
Top Bottom