Etiquette: For Modders

[Erebras]

Can one make a mod of a mod?

I have in mind a few scenarios that use units which already appear in other scenarios and modpacks created by other members and teams of members on this site. It seems a waste of time and space to reupload those files when -- assuming it can be done, mind you -- the Scenarios Properties tab in CivEdit can tell the scenario to look in a specified scenario folder.

Is it a breach of etiquette to construct a mod that references another installed mod that wasn't created by the (new) mod-maker? For example, let's say you want to make a scenario of the Warhammer scenario, but set it in a New World setting, so you only use the Amazons and Forest Goblins and a few others. The scenario you make doesn't require any additional files other than a BIQ. Is it acceptable to submit something like this without offending the ones who put in all the hours of hard work creating the original mod?

I'm trying to think of another example. Maybe if someone took most of Rhye's of Civilization or TETurkan's, but deleted, say, an Ancient era and added a Postmodern era. The files for these stay the same, but now you have a tweak creating a new BIQ of a scenario that plays like the original, but now there's futuristic or space stuff in it. It's not a whole new mod. It's a scenario of a scenario, right?

This thread question presumes you get permission from the modmaker and give proper credit for the individuals for their contributions. The thread question is whether or not it is rude or offensive to do this at all.

 

[Jerry'sGoldfish]

yes, i would stimulate the rethinking of older mods, good ideas can be only good

 

[Yoda Power]

This thread question presumes you get permission from the modmaker and give proper credit for the individuals for their contributions. The thread question is whether or not it is rude or offensive to do this at all.

How can it be rude if you get permission from the mod maker?

 

[T-mun]

Maybe with very old mods you cannot contact them, so maybe posting these scenarios with proper credits and stating that they are "scenarios" and not "mods" should be ok ?

 

[Wolfshade]

IMHO - no. Example - RFRE.
There are 2 scenarios can take place:
1) modder who wants to create the modmod contacted original mod author and received permission to update the original mod.
With units by Imperator & Sandris, with the terrain works by Ares & Rick this scenario could be updated. So, when update is done it'll be a kind of "RFRE 2/RFRE Re-Issue/etc". Still it's a mod
2) modder made 1/2/3 change(s) and wants to re-upload RFRE under their name. In my opinion, minor changes doesn't go. Because every good mod/scenario contains unique solid idea, and even 20 changes won't affect it (ruin, maximally). So this shouldn't be allowed.
And yep, anyone can do these 20 changes. For theirself, not for distribution. Want something to upload? Invent this "something".

Scenario, when mod is re-made and there's no permission from the original author - completely disallowed. Author is unavailable? There are moderators and brilliantly smart people here - ask them.

 

[El Justo]

only if a genuine effort is made to notify the original creator...and the original is ok with it. if the original is long gone then i guess all bets are off. but it is only fair to reach out to the original creator first and if they are ok with it then sure, why not ? i am not too hip on someone working over my stuff and then posting it. i have always said that if you want to change it for your own then go ahead. but no modifications to be posted in a separate thread. i've linked up modifications in the original thread before. but i am diametrically opposed to an unauthorized modification + upload. it's just not right without the original's consent.

 

[Erebras]

...it looks like WolfShade touched upon what I was getting at with his first point ("still, it's a mod") then nixes the idea by saying do it for yourself, not for distribution, which is what El Justo stated also. YodaPower, themanuneed, and Jerry'sGoldfish say if you have permission, then no harm, no foul.

And a third option I failed to think about when I first posed the question: What if someone created an all-underground scenario that used all the dwarves and orcs and goblins from WH2.5 or Mystara or Tides of Crimson (something like that), but nothing else? Or what if someone used the townspeople and civilians from EFZI2 to make some (I dunno) Escape From New York scenario, but nothing else? The creator of the new mod is only referencing the Units folder from the other mod, not the mod itself. In effect the other mod is merely a warehouse or one-stop-shopping for all the units the new mod uses, without the modder having to download all the individual units or upload them with the new mod.

I mean, I suppose if I were limited on space for units on my computer system, I'd probably just cut-and-paste all scenario units into one big Units folder and delete the overlapping units, and then make sure each BIQ knew to look there...but that would be for my own personal use. What if someone were to do that for me? Then that is what the thread question would be asking too, I suppose.

 

[Blue Monkey]

The creator of the new mod is only referencing the Units folder from the other mod, not the mod itself.

The rule of thumb is that things like units, terrain, cities, etc. which have been uploaded here are available to be used by anyone as long as proper credit is given. The point several posters have made is more about mods/scenarios. So much and so complex work has gone into those that it's probably best not to post something like your original proposal without specific permission from the creator(s). The only exception that I can think of that has happened in the past is where someone has made a new map for an existing scenario/mod without changing anything else. TAM & WH come to mind. IIRC such things are generally posted in the preexisting thread. It's always polite to ask permission in such cases any way.

 

[stico]

.............

 

[El Justo]

snatching gfx from other mods is ok imo. they were likely posted to the database or on the forum. it's modifications of the original biq that is a no-no if no permission. i've had a d-bag or two alter and post my stuff without even contacting me. i've had others contact me and ask if they could alter and post and i had to be the wet blanket and say no. i appreciated their candor though. it was surely respectable for them to at least approach me privately and ask. but it really boils down to this : design your own, spend the countless hours like i did. the original is the original for a reason

 

[Gojira54]

My take, never having released a complete mod myself, pretty much follows everyone else. Make a reasonable effort to get permission, and definitely give credit to the original author, probably best to highlight the changes you made.

I make changes to mods I download all the time - sometimes to modify gameplay into something I prefer, but more often to see what I can learn from their mod. If they've done something new and ingenious I might then tweak it to see if I can take it further. But of course these modded mods are never released, and if I ever take these concepts and put them in my own mod I would give credit to the parent concepts owner, but I think in that case permission is not needed (taking someones gameplay concept, advancing it even further, and adding it into your own original mod).

As for anything I have ever and will ever create, my personal policy is that if I've released it or discussed it you may use it without further permission, but you should also credit me for what is mine. But this is just MY policy, I know some others feel differently.

 

[Blue Monkey]

More of my 2¢ worth:

There's a huge difference between modding someone's mod & adapting concepts to your own. For example, why would I struggle on my own to figure out how to use steampunk zeppelins as land transports for an Africa scenario when I can study how it was done with automobiles in EFZI? I would still give credit where credit is due for the big ideas. But imho there's no problem in applying them to my own scenario.

In other words, I agree with Gojira54.

I did something like that when I first enter to this forum. I mixed two mods TAM and Anno Domini in my mod Homeric World. It has been changed quite a lot since then but no one was asked for permission. I was not aware I have to do that. I do apologize for that if someone feels that it was wrong or I had bad intentions or anything else.

This is a little more complex situation since it's not a simple matter of importing rules from one biq & then modifying them. I wonder what those two would have to say about it. They're both active at CFC. They've just moved on to other versions of Civ. I do know that Rob gave permission for people to make mapped versions of AD. Would be nice to hear from them.

 

[Vuldacon]

The separate Creative Work that is Uploaded here for people to use in their Games is, of course, given Freely such as Units, Maps, Resources, Interfaces and other Game Graphics, etc... We all know to give credit for those Works when we use them.

It would not be OK to simply make changes to an Existing Scenario or MOD or use anything from the Originals then upload any of it without permission from the Creators.

... IF one simply wanted to use some of the Units that are in an Existing Scenario or MOD, that should be OK if the Units were Uploaded for use in the first place. Same for anything else in the Original Scenario or MOD... Otherwise, Ask

... In general, it is always necessary to ask for permission to use any Creative Work from others if it was not Uploaded for others to Use in their own creations.

Learning about and adding Concepts from Games that others developed is OK because most creators here share their work as well as help others with their Games and I agree with Blue Monkey that it is good to give credit even there but Modding an existing MOD without permission would Not at all be acceptable.

This thread question presumes you get permission from the modmaker and give proper credit for the individuals for their contributions. The thread question is whether or not it is rude or offensive to do this at all.

Erebras IF one gets permission from the Creator, all would be OK but even asking could be rude or offensive depending on what one is asking.
Example: lets say you are Michelangelo and a new Artist asked you if you would mind if he makes a few changes to your Sistine Chapel ceiling or David Sculpture that he wanted to do and give to everyone. Would you think him Rude or Offensive for even asking?
It is one thing to ask to use a few creative works from an existing Scenario or MOD and quite another to ask for the entire Works so you can simply add a few changes... this would be insulting at best.

Bottom Line... IF anyone wants to change any existing Scenario or MOD for personal use, that is always OK but it is Not OK to Upload it or give it to others without permission from the Original Creators... If the Original Creators cannot be found to give permission, I agree with Wolfshade that Uploading changed Scenarios or MODs should be Disallowed.

 

[Zubareva]

hmmmm, I think it largely depends on who's stuff you want to use. Most everyone I think is delighted to have material used by others, but some are very protective of their work. I think by now generally the attitudes and temperament of the individual modders are well known.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

I'm more than happy for people to use my work. If Anno Domini was changed in some way, I wouldn't have a problem if the person called their creation by a different name and said something like "based on the Anno Domini mod". What would annoy me, however, is if someone uploaded it as "Anno Domini: new and improved".

 

[Blue Monkey]

I'm more than happy for people to use my work. If Anno Domini was changed in some way, I wouldn't have a problem if the person called their creation by a different name and said something like "based on the Anno Domini mod". What would annoy me, however, is if someone uploaded it as "Anno Domini: new and improved".

A general question - prompted by Rob's post:

What about a situation where someone wants to make a supplemental scenario that requires some slight modification? Something less than a total reworking. For example a mapped all-Asian AD that might need some slight tweaking of the city/unit graphics or minor adjustment to the tech tree to remove unneeded techs/civ-specific wonders/ etc.. Is that a "based on", a no-go, or some sort of a third situation?

Another example is an idea I've had for adapting MEM to an Albigensian Crusade scenario. New map, some renaming of units & civs/leaders. But no substantial changes to the mechanics of the scenario. Depending on the extent that could be considered minor or else something clearly needing vetting by the original creator.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

The key thing is whether or not the creators are clear about who has created what. With the Civ V version of Anno Domini, for example, other people took it upon themselves to create maps for AD, which was great, but people (particularly on Steam) were asking me to fix errors which arose from the maps. In this instance, the creators were good enough to say, "It's me you need to discuss this with" - but still, it needs to be clear.

Sometimes when people want to re-create a mod one of the following occurs:
01. The mod takes a different direction to what you'd planned - for example, an ancient mod suddenly lasts until industrial times.
02. The re-creators are not as accurate as you were spelling-wise.
03. A previously rich civilopedia suddenly has missing or inaccurate entries.
04. Unforseen crashes occur.
05. All of the above.
I wouldn't want to be associated with a mess, which can happen.

 

[Blue Monkey]

How does this sound for a consensus so far?

• Build bridges, don't burn them. Foster a situation where others will want to help you with future efforts. In general be polite, be respectful and be humble. Keep it collegial.
• The default protocol is that publicly available material such as units, graphics, etc. is usable without specific permission, but expecting credit is reasonable. OTOH the default is to not modify & repost scenarios / mods without explicit permission. These are only the defaults - they never override an individual creator's preferences.
• There are certain people that have made their stance clear. Sometimes they've made a statement in the thread with their material. Ares' restrictions on modifications to his terrain beta is a good example. But sometimes restrictions are buried in posts in other threads. Never assume - always check.
• Consult with the original creator(s). Don't post anything they're not comfortable with. [IMHO vetting a project you've already got permission for by letting the original creator(s) see your wip before it's posted might be a good idea.]
• Don't assume just because someone hasn't posted here in a while that they're no longer active. Don't limit your request to a single post in an old thread. PM the person. Post a new thread asking about the situation. Be patient (rl intervenes), see if the person has moved on to a newer version & mostly posts in a different subforum, ask other long-time members if they know how to get in touch, etc. If there is no response to an inquiry still be cautious.
• Be prepared to take down something you've posted if it wasn't authorized.
• Give credit where credit is due. This is a two way street: if you're not given credit for a contribution (ie graphics) to a mod/scenario assume it's an oversight rather than a slight. A polite reminder usually leads to an amended readme / credits post.
• Assistance with game engine tweaks like getting the ai to behave a certain way, major help with palette problems and other "behind the scenes" contributions are worthy of public acknowledgement.

Just trying to sum up the general sense of what's been posted so far. Definitely not a proposed set of rules.

 

[Yoda Power]

Another example is an idea I've had for adapting MEM to an Albigensian Crusade scenario. New map, some renaming of units & civs/leaders. But no substantial changes to the mechanics of the scenario. Depending on the extent that could be considered minor or else something clearly needing vetting by the original creator.

King Arthur already based a scenario on MEMII (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=454746). If you want to do that, then go ahead. Using MEMII for scenarios makes a lot of sense really, and me and ED has never been against it.

What I don't like though is what R8XFT described above "an improved version". When we were still working on updating the mod, some dude popped up with his own "new version" of the mod. No credits given, but even that wouldn't have made it ok in my opinion.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

King Arthur already based a scenario on MEMII (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=454746). If you want to do that, then go ahead. Using MEMII for scenarios makes a lot of sense really, and me and ED has never been against it.

What I don't like though is what R8XFT described above "an improved version". When we were still working on updating the mod, some dude popped up with his own "new version" of the mod. No credits given, but even that wouldn't have made it ok in my opinion.

I had that in mind when I made the comment. I remember it happening and it was bang out of order. Like Yoda Power, I've no problem with someone making a scenario for a mod as long as it's clear who created what.