EU constitution

[Winner]

You never answered about the way the EU Constitution handles a country leaving, you just asked about how the US would handle it.

I would have to do some reasearch on it, and frankly, I am too tired now But I'll try to find out some info and think about it.

 

[DexterJ]

There is, rather sadly, a fairly large body of opinion in Britain which wants to leave the EU. Though I'm not sure what they have us sign up to instead.
An attempt to search the internet for info on the outcomes of leaving the EU tends to throw up extremist partys websites such UKIP.
Britain, especially the north, would lose out on a huge amount of EU development money which funds a lot of projects which I dont think many people in Britain appreciate.

To reply to someones post from many pages ago

I have not seen yet a post of yours I don't agree with it

thanks very much, though, dissapointingly I have not been able to post much recently cos I was reprimanded last thurs after the MD noticed that I was spending all day at work on the Civfanatic forum. thankfully next week is my last week before I start my new job. which is not in call centre

 

[ComradeDavo]

There is, rather sadly, a fairly large body of opinion in Britain which wants to leave the EU. Though I'm not sure what they have us sign up to instead.

Thats the British media for you

They mislead the British puiblic! I wonder just how many people in the UK realise how econimically dependant we are on being a member of the EU...

 

[Britannia]

Originally Posted by DexterJ
An attempt to search the internet for info on the outcomes of leaving the EU tends to throw up extremist partys websites such UKIP.

Just out of curiosity why do you view leaving the EU as an extremist position when all that entails is what they see as their country governing itself. And do you also consider the Scottish Nationalist Party as an extreme party.

Britain, especially the north, would lose out on a huge amount of EU development money which funds a lot of projects which I dont think many people in Britain appreciate.

Britain is a net contributer to the EU though and so they are effectively just given us our own money back.

Originally Posted by ComradeDavo
They mislead the British puiblic! I wonder just how many people in the UK realise how econimically dependant we are on being a member of the EU...

I pretty sure that the vast majority are aware of our economic relationship with other European countries, it's just that many people don't believe that the economic benefits outweigh the price of giving up some of our sovereignty. And I dont think the media are misleading people they are presenting an opinion and using certain facts to back up that opinion, which is what newspapers do on every single issue.

The problem with many Pro EU people is that you assume that just because someone doesn't come to the same conclusion as you then they must not have all the fact. I would be willing to bet my house on the fact that pro EU people are just as ignorant about this constitution as the anti's, just look at the recent referendum in Spain where the people voted for it even though polls showed that a lot of them didn't have a clue what the constitution had in it.

 

[Elrohir]

I would have to do some reasearch on it, and frankly, I am too tired now But I'll try to find out some info and think about it.

Ok. That was my biggest objection to the EU's Constitution.

 

[Stapel]

I really don't know.....

I dowloaded the whole shabang, and it appears to be 349 pages......
And we are going to have referendum about it.

Morons!
I want our parliament to vote on it, as they are paid to read it and then vote!

 

[DexterJ]

Just out of curiosity why do you view leaving the EU as an extremist position when all that entails is what they see as their country governing itself. And do you also consider the Scottish Nationalist Party as an extreme party.

yes I would and the sooner the last vestiges of the nation state are swept away the better.

Britain is a net contributer to the EU though and so they are effectively just given us our own money back.

maybe so but the money was never funnelled back into development aid before. the EU is a good way of redistriuting national wealth around a country, for example, in Britain taking it from the South East and directing it to the north.

 

[ComradeDavo]

I pretty sure that the vast majority are aware of our economic relationship with other European countries, it's just that many people don't believe that the economic benefits outweigh the price of giving up some of our sovereignty

This whole 'giving up sovereignty' argument just doesn't hold with me, for a start the British people wiill have as much influence as they do now, if anything at least we can elect EU politicians, we are stuck with our head of state.........

The problem with many Pro EU people is that you assume that just because someone doesn't come to the same conclusion as you then they must not have all the fact.

Well in the case of those people who get all their news from the Sun and/or Daily Mail then they don't have the facts!

 

[Britannia]

Originally Posted by DexterJ
yes I would and the sooner the last vestiges of the nation state are swept away the better.

Well thats your opinion suffice to say I don't agree with that. The EU is becoming a new nation state so all we you are doing is replacing one nation state with a union of nation states which will in time become it's own nation state in it's own right.

maybe so but the money was never funnelled back into development aid before. the EU is a good way of redistriuting national wealth around a country, for example, in Britain taking it from the South East and directing it to the north.

That is true however if we left the EU we could easily create a British controlled regional development programme and spend our money far more efficiently.

Originally Posted by ComradeDavo
This whole 'giving up sovereignty' argument just doesn't hold with me, for a start the British people wiill have as much influence as they do now, if anything at least we can elect EU politicians, we are stuck with our head of state.........

In the UK we might not elect our head of state but that position has no power where as in the EU we don't elect the EU commision or the council of ministers which are all powerful positions.
And our sovereignty as a nation is being eroded as we are handing powers over to a multi national organisation that Britain is only a small part of. Now that might be ok for people that want the EU to become a nation but for others that view Britain as their country and don't want to be part of the EU then it is true to say that some of our sovereignty is being given away.

Well in the case of those people who get all their news from the Sun and/or Daily Mail then they don't have the facts!

As opposed to those that get all their news from the Daily Mirror and the Guardian who do have all the facts? Look both groups of newspapers leave out certain facts that dont go with their opinions but thats what happens on every single political issue. People are not so stupid that they ignore the political leanings of the paper that they are reading they know that the Sun is Euro sceptic and that the Mirror is Pro Euro, they know that neither it would be unlikely for either paper to run a news story that ran contrary to the papers political views.
If people want an impartial view (sort of impartial) then they'll watch the news or a debate programme like Question Time, I don't think that the majority of people get all their views from a single source, at least I hope not.

 

[carniflex]

I voted (here) and will vote "no" because

1. This treaty is the constitutionalization of the rightist policy (liberalism in the european meaning) that rule Europe (and the world) for 20-30 years. The constitutionalization of a policy is undemocratic.

2. This "constitution" was not written by an elected assembly, and will not be voted by the european people (i mean with a referendum in the whole europe)

3. This "constitution" guarantees the freedom of circulation of capitals (not sure of this translation). This "freedom" effectively makes impossible the developpement of the welfare-state.

4. This "constitution" claims it was inspired by religion. ( beginning of the treaty)

5. This "constitution" obliges the member states to increase their military forces. (yes it does)

6. This "constitution" obliges the member states to cooperate with the NATO.

The arguments are so numerous. I may have forgotten some.

 

[Stapel]

4. This "constitution" claims it was inspired by religion. ( beginning of the treaty)

That pissed me off too.

It sais our current freedom was inspired by religious values, whereas any living creature with more than 4 working braincells understands that religion has been standing in the way of freedom for ages.

 

[Winner]

That pissed me off too.

It sais our current freedom was inspired by religious values, whereas any living creature with more than 4 working braincells understands that religion has been standing in the way of freedom for ages.

I am an atheist, but I don't mind this. We are affected by the christianity much more than we think. For example most of what we call "morale" originates from the religion.

I am settled with that there isn't statement "in God we trust" or crap like that in preamble.

 

[Stapel]

I am an atheist, but I don't mind this. We are affected by the christianity much more than we think. For example most of what we call "morale" originates from the religion.

I am settled with that there isn't statement "in God we trust" or crap like that in preamble.

In contrary to popular believe, morality does not come from religion, but religion originates from morality. It's simply packed in a religious form, so it's easier to accept for the people.


Of course christianity has influenced our culture. But to say it has contributed to our freedom is a pathetic lie.

 

[Winner]

Of course christianity has influenced our culture. But to say it has contributed to our freedom is a pathetic lie.

I agree, but I said nothing about freedom

 

[Hotpoint]

4. This "constitution" claims it was inspired by religion. ( beginning of the treaty)

Preamble to the Constitution

Drawing inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, from which have developed the universal values of the inviolable and inalienable rights of the human person,democracy, equality, freedom and the rule of law

Although an atheist I can deal with this because I can see how it could be argued that the origins of modern political though can be traced back to a very religiously inspired time.

We got a lot to thank those Polytheist Ancient Greeks and Romans for. It's just a pity those damn Christians held back European progress so long

 

[Stapel]

Drawing inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, from which have developed the universal values of the inviolable and inalienable rights of the human person,democracy, equality, freedom and the rule of law

Although an atheist I can deal with this because I can see how it could be argued that the origins of modern political though can be traced back to a very religiously inspired time.

We got a lot to thank those Polytheist Ancient Greeks and Romans for. It's just a pity those damn Christians held back European progress so long

There is no doubt our values of the inviolable and inalienable rights of the human person,democracy, equality, freedom and the rule of law have been influenced our religious inheritance. But mostly in a negative way. Religious conflicts have, for instance, inspired the Dutch to fight for independency from the Spanish catholic rule.
It is the religious inhertitance that has caused the biggest delay in our continuous struggle towards feedom.

It bothers me the constitution begins with this pathetic lie.......

 

[carniflex]

We are affected by the christianity much more than we think. For example most of what we call "morale" originates from the religion.

That is not the point. This treaty is not about morale. It pretends to be the constitution of a democratic europe.
Would you say that our democracy originates from the religion or religious values ?
Of course not. Democracy originates in the philosophers of the 18th century, that were atheists or deists. On the contrary, democracy, liberalism (in the US sense), and socialism were doomed by the pope Pie IX in the syllabus errorum (1864).

 

[DexterJ]

But as we won't even hold a referendum (which would probably lead to a "no" and the factual collapse of the whole union) this doesn't matter at all. Great democracy this is..

why should there be a referendum on this? I dont think there should be one at all. We all elected our poliiticans and when we did we knew their stance on Europe. They should therefore be able to vote on this matter without recourse to a referedum. The issue of a European constituion also seems a little complicated for the average joe to vote on. I will for example be voting yes but I'm not entirely sure what I will be voting for. Politicians are elected for a reason and in Britain and (suprisingly) elsewhere too they have passed the buck back to the people. In Britain this is partyl understandable cos Blair is so adverse to doing anything unpopular on principle he would rather give the vote to the public.

 

[Britannia]

Originally Posted by DexterJ
why should there be a referendum on this? I dont think there should be one at all. We all elected our poliiticans and when we did we knew their stance on Europe. They should therefore be able to vote on this matter without recourse to a referedum. The issue of a European constituion also seems a little complicated for the average joe to vote on. I will for example be voting yes but I'm not entirely sure what I will be voting for. Politicians are elected for a reason and in Britain and (suprisingly) elsewhere too they have passed the buck back to the people. In Britain this is partyl understandable cos Blair is so adverse to doing anything unpopular on principle he would rather give the vote to the public.

This is not a normal issue though, it is a fundamental change in how we are ruled and by who we are ruled. You are right we elect politicians to represent us and to make decisions based on their own conclusions however I dont think that Parliament is right, or if indeed it has the right, to pass on certain powers to another body without the people's approval.