European Middle Ages Mod Resurrection

[Craig_Sutter]

My suggestions for some of them...

Saxony - Fyrdman (spear replacement), or Thegn (vassal replacement)
Welsh - some sort of composite bow replacement
Normans - Norman Infantry or Knight, Barque (cog replacement with greater transport)
Ireland - Kern (skirmisher type replacing composte archer), or Gallowglass
Spain - Tercio (pikeman replacement)
Portugal - nao (carrack replacement)
Italian States - Italian Militia
Venice - Venitian Galley (replaces Medieval Galley), or Venitian War Galley (replaces medieval trireme), or Venetian Galleass
Lithuania - some sort of horsemen/knight

 

[Craig_Sutter]

I like your late Roman Empire choice...

 

[kwkimball]

Having both the Papal States and Italian States is redundant, mainly because the Papal States were one of the Italian States. If you want to have two Civs, remove the Italian States and include specific states: the Republic of Venice, the Kingdom of Sicily, the Papal States, or the Kingdom of Sardinia.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Germany - german Axeman, maybe.

Highlander is a little anachronistic, actually, as they cam in the 1600's. Clansman might be a more accurate name, although Highlander works for me...

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Germany - german Axeman, maybe.

Highlander is a little anachronistic, actually, as they cam in the 1600's. Clansman might be a more accurate name, although Highlander works for me...

 

[Craig_Sutter]

to kwkimball

We've had much discussion previously about this issue. Many of the civs are included for the purposes of scenarios and will not be in the main mod, so they are not redundant. Look at the first page to see which civs are chosen for the mod. Others are included as supplementry for scenario makers. A number of posts were made on this topic in this thread a few weeks ago. Please look at the earlier parts of this thread to see how the discussion went. Perhaps that will clarify the choices made, and the rationale for them.

 

[Drtad]

Some more UU ideas:
Scotland : Highlander : Swordsman with highlander promotion and reduced cost
Crusaders : Knight of the Order : Foot Knight with +50% city attack
Mongols : Keshik : Light Cavalry, no movement cost over hills and forest, starts with Feint promo
Khazars : Tarkhan : Vassal with +50% attacking spearmen, increased cost?
Persia : Daylami : Swordsman with +50% city attack, +25% city defense, -1 strength
Late Roman Empire : Foederati : Warrior with +1 str, -50% city attack, +50% city defense

Ok, here are the civilizations we need UU ideas for:
Saxony
Welsh
Normans
Ireland
France
Germany
Goths
Spain
Portugal
Italian States
Venice
Papal States
Lithuania
Russia
Slavs
Moors
Tatars
Bulgars

I am going to barrow some from Medieval II: Total War.
Spain=Jinetes, a type of light, skirmisher cavalry
Bulgars=Bulgarian Brigands, a type of archer
Russia=Boyars, nobles armed with bows and swords, pretty formidable
Italian States=Genoese Sailors, apparently the Genoese Republic had renowned archers
Venice=similar to the Viking ship maybe?
Welsh=Welsh Longbowman, the Welsh were renowned longbowmen
Tatars=Tatar Horseman, they were pretty good with horses after all
Moors=Berber Cavalry, I think they were horse archers or camel archers, I forget

 

[Head Serf]

Ok, so are both the Welsh and the English going to have Longbowmen as their UUs? That's fine, but they should have distinct names. I was thinking like, Cymraeg Longbowmen for Wales, and English Longbow for the English. All new units retain old abilities unless specified (ex, spearman still have +100% vs mounted). Here's some stat ideas for the units you guys came up with:
Saxony : Fyrdman : Spearman with Woodsman promo, +50% city defense, -1 str
Wales : Cymraeg Longbowman : Composite Archer, +3 more first strikes, increased cost
Ireland : Ceithernn (Kern) : Archer with +1 str
Normans : Norman War Horse : Knight with Discipline I and II (William is aggressive)

Will do more later. Thanks for the ideas!

 

[Craig_Sutter]

I really don't like Bulgarian Brigand as the name for a unit... sounds too irregular to my taste... not really like a military unit (although Total War is a great source).

Rather than Genoese Sailor, I'd prefer Genoese Crossbowman which were reknowned mercenaries (for example, at Agincourt, where, unfortunately, the French Knights trampled over them in their charge towards the English (not their best moment)). Again, Genoese Sailor sounds too irregular, not regular military.

As I understand it, the Irish Kern (Ceithernn) was a skirmisher/javilineer type unit (at least in Total War), and not an archer, although it should replace an archer type (as Malinese Skirmisher does). Also, I think they should replace composite archer rather that archer as they appeared after 1000 AD (they were common soldiers attached to Gallowglasses, who fought the Norman invaders of Ireland).

The others are good selections.

 

[Arne]

Ok, here are the civilizations we need UU ideas for:

Some (more?) suggestions. Hope this will help.

• France: French Knight ("Chevallier"?) - Knight on horse
• Germany: German/Teutonic Knight ("Deutschritter"?) knight on horse or footknight.
  Landsknecht (<- may be too late in time?)
• Ireland: Hobilars (light Cavalry with spears)
• Slavs: Slavic Bowmen?
• Bulgars: Pronoias (originaly byzantine Cavalry, but spread on balkan region)

 

[Head Serf]

Some more UUs, thanks again for the ideas everyone

Spain : Tercio : Pikeman with city assuallt promotion and discipline I
Portugal : Nau : Carrack with +3 move and lessened cost, carry +1 unit
Goths : Goten Huskarl : Axeman with anti-archer promotion, no resources
Venice : Heavy Galeazza : Galleass with +1 move and naval artillery 3 promo, can carry one unit
Germany : Kreuzzug Ritter (Crusader Knight) : Maceman with +25&#37; city attack -25% city defense, increased seige ability
France : Chevallier : Knight with +25% vs melee, +1 str
Papal States : Missionary Priest : Since the Papal states are not going to be playable in random games, their UU is a much more effective Catholic Missionary with 3 move and increased chance of spreading religion
Moors : Berber Cavalry : Vassal with Desert Warrior and +1 move
Italian States : Genoese Crossbowman : Crossbowman with +1 move
Tatars : Steppe Horseman : Horse Archer with +25% city attack, no movement cost from pillage

Here's how the units are distributed so far:

Knight : 4

Vassal : 3

Composite Archer : 2
Swordsman : 2
Horse Archer : 2

Warrior : 1
Archer : 1
Axeman : 1
Spearman : 1
Missionary : 1
Maceman : 1
Foot Knight : 1
Crossbowman : 1
Pikeman : 1
Light Cavalry : 1
Heavy Cavalry : 1
Arquebusiers : 1
Longboat : 1
Lateen Galley : 1
Carrack : 1
Galleass : 1

Handgunners : 0
Halberdier : 0
Galley : 0
Cog : 0
Medieval Galley : 0
Caravel : 0
Galleon : 0
Trireme : 0
Medieval Trireme : 0


And here are the civs still in need of UUs.

Lithuania
Russia
Slavs
Bulgars

 

[Drtad]

The Genoese crossbowman seems a bit underpowered. Maybe you could give it no penalty for amphibious attack?

 

[Broken Hawk]

Some (more?) suggestions. Hope this will help.

• France: French Knight ("Chevallier"?) - Knight on horse
• Germany: German/Teutonic Knight ("Deutschritter"?) knight on horse or footknight.
  Landsknecht (<- may be too late in time?)
• Ireland: Hobilars (light Cavalry with spears)
• Slavs: Slavic Bowmen?
• Bulgars: Pronoias (originaly byzantine Cavalry, but spread on balkan region)

I believe the Teutonic Knight was referred to as the Ordenritter. I'm putting together info now to create a scenario for the Northern Crusades.

 

[Head Serf]

Just a quick note. When I finish 0.45 I'll include as a seperate download all of the information scenario makers will need to make good scenarios, including an explanation of the colors, the leaders, and the civilizations. It'll include the text lines for all of the leaders so they can be easily included and such.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

I've been doing some playtesting on the large map.

Playing marathon, I've consistantly been having civs fall to barbarian horsemen. Last game, it was 3 civs by 800 AD. And more were going to fall, judging from the hordes encroaching on their territory.

I've been investigating the problem, and here's some of what I found.

First, the strengths...

Horse Archer... +100% vrs melee, -20% city attack, Str 5... adjusted to 8 against melee in a city.

Warrior... +25% city defense, +25% assuming it's been fortified, Str 2... adjusted to 3 when defending in a city.

Obviously, there is no contest between the Warrior and the Horse Archer at 8:3 odds (lacking a wall). Even the Warrior upgrade, Militia, fails at 8:7.5 odds.

The Spearman fares better. Against Horse Archer, when defending in a city, it defends at 9:8... much better odds than a Warrior.

The Archer defends at 5 when fortified in a city, but the Horse Archer Str against a nonmelee unit goes down to 4 vrs a city. 5:4. Archer wins.

The Swordsman defends at 7.5:8, a slight disadvantage. The Axeman defends at 6.25:8, slightly worse.

Given these facts, It looks like the AI ought to be producing units that adequately defend against the Horse Archers... Spearman and Archer. So what's going wrong.

I believe the problem is in the Unit AI. Archer had a AI_Attack, Spearman has AI_Counter (whatever that means). The only unit with AI_Defend is the Warrior, the absolute worst defender against Horse Archers.

How to dorrect this...

-the city attack negative for Horse Archer could be increased... at -50% it would still devestate Warriors at 7.5:3. At -100% it's still 5:3.
-we could lower the anti-melee % of horse archer. at only 50%, the odds infavour of the Horse Archer vrs Warrior at 6.5:1
-we could do both... -100% vrs city, and +50% vrs melee... this would be 2.5:3 in favour of the warrior.

-but how would this effect other combats...
Horse Archer vrs Spear in city would be ridiculous. 2.5 to 9 for the Spearman. vrs Archer it would be 2.5 to 5 in favour of the Archer. Similarly Axeman and Swordsman both triumph.

So the imbalance goes the other way then.

I'm really not certain how to solve this problem. The unit strengths need to be examined, in light of paper rock scissors concept. We could change Spearman or Archer AI to defend, but this leaves no role for the Warrior as it's best in defense, but rather poor at it. We could fiddle with the Warriors city defense %, but its str is so low at 2, that rather high percentages would be needed to make a difference. Some combination of all these will have to be worked out I suppose.

Anyhow, just a few thoughts. The barbarian horsearcher problem does not seem to be so great at normal speed. I've not tested that enough, though... anyone else notice these sorts of problems?

 

[Craig_Sutter]

I'd been thinking the same think about a missionary unit for the Papal states UU. I was thinking perhaps no war when crossing borders, and increased conversion.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

The UU list is looking very good.

Have you checked the other medieval mod by Pysx (sic). It seems to be more east europe based (I believe he is Russian) so there may be some fairly authentic units for some of your civs that now lack UUs.

 

[jefmart1]

I also thought the horse archer was overpowered. But I wouldn't worry about the warrior, to me they are just placeholders against early animals or warriors attacking you or for removing fog of war. Archers and spearmen should be the defenders. As soon as I can build them, I replace the warriors.

The only reason that warriors have a city defense bonus, is to make it harder for other warriors to wipe them out in a city. Otherwise a barbarian rush could kill your defenders quickly and end the game, or vice versa.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

The AI should be set for AI_defend for either of the Archer or Spearman, then, as you and I both know how to use these units to defend horsearchers, but the AI, as far as it is concerned, has them for a different purpose under current AI instructions.

 

[jefmart1]

I would just change the Spearman to AI_Defend, so that the AI uses it as its primary defender.

What is the Pikeman set to?

Not being at home, is the city defense promo available to spearmen? If not it should be.

You know, thinking about it. The AI always uses archery units to defend cities. That may be great of you are using melee units as your primary attackers, but I prefer to use cavalry.

Theoretically, fortified spearmen and pikemen in cities would make that difficult; but I rarely run into that problem. My heavy cavalry typically decimates longbowmen and crossbowmen. I might sacrifice one to soften up the first defender or so, but I roll after that.