European Middle Ages Mod Resurrection

[lshockley]

Re: Contact/Conquest:

Apparently I was thinking about this stuff while I was sleeping last night, because I have more ideas!

I'm glad everybody likes the idea of limiting the Contact buildings. Further, I was thinking that the slave bonus you acquire from the Conquests could double-speed production of all wonders. This is fairly late in the game, so it wouldn't be a too powerful of an advantage - though it could help a player come from behind in points.

If we do this, I think we should make each of the Conquests provide Slaves. The Contacts could then provide Maize (Aztec), Gold (Inca), and Fur (Iroquois).

What do you guys think?

@Head Serf - I did adjust the cost - I will look to see if I am in the range of your suggestion.

-L

 

[Craig_Sutter]

The Shipping membership should have a dockyard prereq building, if you go that way.

Similarly, the other Hansa's should have Guildhalls, or other suitable buildings (bank, for instance, or even more than one, for ex. 3 banks).

In my humble opinion...

 

[Head Serf]

The Hansa Memberships bonus increase production of some parts to the Hanseatic victory. Now that I think about it, the bonus should be extended to most of the parts.

 

[Broken Hawk]

Wasn't amber the big thing to trade in the Baltics? Or could I be mistaken.

You are right and IMHO should be included along with salted herring.

 

[lshockley]

If you guys think Amber should be included, we can replace the Coin membership with Amber?

@Broken Hawk: I have Foodstuffs as requiring Salt or Fish - close enough for Salted Herring?

-Laina

 

[jcb]

The Byzantine Navy was remarkedly poor in the high middle to late middle ages compared with the Venetians...

The Byzantine military was known more for their heavy cavalry, the cataphract.

I think it should replace or join the dromon as the byzantinian specialized unit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_military

 

[Drtad]

Not entirely true. The Byzantine navy experienced a rennaisance under Alexios, Iohannes (John II), and Manuel Komnenos. After them it decayed again. But in the early middle ages the Byzantines dominated the seas with dromons and firegalleys. I agree though, that when 2nd UU's or even 3rd UU's are added, Kataphraktoi should be the next UU of the Byzantines. Followed by Varangian Guard, or maybe even Thematikoi units. Maybe we could even get all of the unit of each civ translated, for example the Byzantines wouldn't have archers, they'd call them toxotai. And spearman would be pezoi. Just brainstorming for a possible future concept.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Remember that the dromon becomes obsolete with the advent of Medieval Trireme (with shipbuilding?).

 

[Craig_Sutter]

I think banking was rather more important than the amber trade, though. I'd like to see it kept. We could always make a 7th Hansa...

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Double speed with slaves seems too much... possibily +50%???

 

[Broken Hawk]

If you guys think Amber should be included, we can replace the Coin membership with Amber?

@Broken Hawk: I have Foodstuffs as requiring Salt or Fish - close enough for Salted Herring?

-Laina

I would get amber involved somehow.

Salt or Fish are good I think as salt was good as gold in the Baltic, among other places of course. I agree with Head Serf on silk and even add dye/cotton to being replaced. Major trade items of the Hansa included the aforementioned fur, honey/wax, wheat (esp. the Teutonic Order ) and amber. Other trade items in the Baltic included bricks, yes bricks , slaves, flax, walrus ivory, etc.

 

[Broken Hawk]

I think banking was rather more important than the amber trade, though. I'd like to see it kept. We could always make a 7th Hansa...

I like adding a 7th.

 

[lshockley]

Wow, you guys know a lot about this stuff! I was just sort of guessing,

Hansa / Tech / Bonus Required / Buildings Required
Hansa Member - Wool / Weaving / Sheep / Port & Guildhall
Hansa Member - Textiles / Weaving / Dye or Cotton / Port & Guildhall
Hansa Member - Foodstuffs / Preservation / Salt or Fish / Port & Grocer
Hansa Member - Shipping / Pilotage / None / Port & Dockyard
Hansa Member - Fur / Guilds / Fur / Port & Guildhall
Hansa Member - Coin / Banking / Silver or Gold / Port & Bank
Hansa Member - Amber / ??? / Amber / Port & Guildhall

What did medieval people use Amber for? (I need help picking the tech!)

Also, if we're going to add a seventh Hansa, I think we should definitely put some worldwide limits on the memberships. If we limit it to 4 of each, there'd be a maximum of 28 memberships world-wide.

Your thoughts? -Laina

 

[lshockley]

Re: Contact/Conquest

For the Slave bonus, 50% wonder increase (instead of 100%) sounds ok to me!

For the Contact/Conquest production cost, I had 400/300 - I will increase to 550/300, as suggested by Head Serf. I like that Contact is more difficult to achieve than Conquest.

-Laina

 

[Craig_Sutter]

The beginnings of the Amber trade predates this mod's time period... so I'd just select Guilds as the Tech (as it would allow Hansas).

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Of course, you could just have a catch-all Hansa called Luxuries Trade, and have amber or beeswax or gems, etc as the prereq bonuses (I don't recall all of the possibile luxury goods).

 

[Craig_Sutter]

I know Head Serf was concerned with an overabundance of luxury goods that affect happiness.

That being said, and only if it could be balanced, could some of the Hansa produce goods... for instance, 2 wools for Wool Hansa, or Cloth for the Textile Hansa... just by way of example. This would be an additional benefit of building the wonders.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

I think amber was used for jewellry, but for some reason in the back of my mind, I also associate it with perfumes... but I could be mistaken.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

And now for something completely different...

Something that has always bothered me is the seeming immovability of Capitals. Granted, a player can always rebuild his Palace in any city he wishes, but in practice this is rarely done, and I daresay, never done by the AI Civs barring conquest of the Capital by another Civ.

In reality, however, almost all Civ capitals moved, sometimes on numerous occasions. The Franks, for example, had at least 3 capitals I can recall: Tournai, Rhiems and Paris. This becomes evident as you review the city lists, where many of the cities were apparently former Capitals of the kingdoms. Hungary's first three cities are former capitals, and the Kievan Rus' first capital was Novgorod, for instance, not Kiev.

The necessity for more Palace and Capital movement is even more so in this Mod, where in its early stages, the nations are barbarian states in flux. What sense does it make, for instance, for the Bulgarians to have a capital in the boonies north of the Crimea when they've expanded into former Byzantine territory as they did historically.

I think more dynamic movement of the Palace wonder is mandated. I can think of a few reasons for such movement. Sometimes it occurs due to conquest... the game handles this normally. The other instance is building the Palace in another location... which rarely, if ever, happens with the AI.

Capital movements, I believe, came with governmental style change, or in periods of renewal. Hence, I propose that the Palace wonder be made obsolete with certain techs, and be replaced by an identical Palace wonder that becomes available with that same tech that obsoletes the old Palace.

The following techs make sense as ones in which a state would be prone to move its capital...

Code of Laws
Claims to Authority
and possibly...
Dynastic Houses

All represent a change in the power of the centre and the extension of royal authority.

I am mindful of Civs that didn't move their capitals as well, Byzantium for one. This could be handled by letting them access a Palace that doesn't obsolete, and being unable to build the others. Depending on the Civ, the Palace Wonders could become obsolete or not, depending upon historic Capital movements.

Some questions I have that are relevant are as follows...

When a Palace becomes obsolete, what happens. Is it similar to conquest of the Capital, where the new Capital appears in a new city immediately? Will the new Palace Wonder appear or have to be built? Will the new Palace become the default Palace?

Implimentation should be fairly easy. Copying the Palace Wonder is all that is needed, I believe, and adding in obsolete Techs and required techs for the new Palace Wonder(s). It gets more complicated if we tailor it to individual Civs, and I'm not certain it is necessary to do so. A Byzantine renewal might very well chose Byzantium for its Capital, or it might not, but so what.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts. What do you think?

 

[Head Serf]

I like the idea of switching capitals, however, there are a few problems I see in your solution. Firstly, if the new palace has to be rebuilt, the time it takes to rebuild will be an economic disaster for the player. No palace means sharply increased maintenance and no extra commerce from the capital. Also, it could be difficult to make the AI choose to immeadiately start building the new palace. If we chose to make the new palace extremely cheap then the AI might make the mistake of building it where it is not necessarily very effective.

Secondly, I think that having Code of Laws be a tech for capital change might be a little too much, considering how close to the beginning it is. I feel that Claims to Authority and Dynastic Houses would be enough.

My idea for changing the capital is, using python, make it so that once the requisite technology is researched, a pop-up comes up essentially saying, "Your country is in revolt! Where would you like to have your new capital?", and then offering say, your 5 biggest cities as options. For the computer a random city out of the top 3 or 4 population wise would be chosen.

Would this work? The big obstacle would be for someone to learn the python to make this possible.