Events - feedback needed

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, I was thinking "Copper, Iron, Mithril," perhaps Enchanted as well, but a custom weapon promotion could be nice. Scale it to your weapon tech level, perhaps, but no further, meaning that if you get it while on Bronze weapons it won't be much good against Iron, but if you get it at Mithril you get something real nice.

Or maybe just 'Dwarf-crafted -Blank-', with -blank- being the metals. An extra few percent, or maybe even a increase to base strength. (+.5 base strength to all units? +.1 affinity for each type of metal resource you have?)



Thinking as to a few more...


Luchirp: Master Golem Makers: Get a Golem (not Bernaxus) with at least X promotions of an sort (though Barnexus-given promotions count): Prove that you not only are capable of making Golems, but that you are a master of golem creation.

Barnaxus, of course, is the obvious route. And it's fair enough: Barnaxus teaches the golems, and the Luchirp, and by the time they learn they really have 'emerged'. But the other way to complete the quest is the golem-workshop buildings, which give your new golems starting promotions. In fact, it might be worth making it require at least one building-granted promotion (or just one or two promotions more than Barnexus can give).

Reward: A boost to golems? Or perhaps a free specialist in all cities: the expert golems not only demonstrate existing excellence, but bring out more. (If a GPP specialist is too much, perhaps a few free workers could be granted for a small bonus.)



Sheaim: Summoners: Get X number of Gates. The Sheaim can only really be said to have emerged when they have not one, or even two, but multiple Planar Gates across their empire, bringing in reinforcements. Many players would be inclined to wait, for the high cost. This quest may... motivate them.

Alternatively: Get Y number of summons/gate beasts in any one turn, demonstrating proof of mastery of summoning.

Reward: Not to sure, actually. Sheaim already get a lot of bonuses for summons. It may just be best to give a Great Person, or a tech, or something more basic.



Grigori: Enlightenment: Control (a) Holy City(/ies). The Grigori have always been at the edges of history, spreading their philosophy here and there, always tolerated but rarely influential. Now, however... if they could bring even the heart of a religion to step back, to defer their customary enthusiastic embrace of their religion, they could influence the entire religion's followers through Grigori-influenced schools of thought. Simply because the Grigori are not dominated by a religion does not mean they can't weigh in on it and inspire improvements in its application in other nations. The more Holy Cities the Grigori hold sway over, the more their words can effect the world.

Reward: Improved relations with whatever countries follow the religion of the Holy City you hold. In effect, something like the 'we love our brothers in faith' attitude adjustment, only renamed more appropriate, applying to any and every Holy City you come to possess.

 

[arkham4269]

Can their be events tied to specific actions you take in the game? I always thought that getting the pieces of Barnaxus should allow other Civs to potentially do something with those pieces.

I mean the Mechanos could use them to either create a clockwork golem w/extra promotions or perhaps allow Goliath access to either a special promotion or just some new ones. Of course it would be nice if they could rebuild him enough so they could give him back to the Luirchip.

To the same degree the Doviello could use the parts to give their War Machine extra promotions or a special promotion.

You could play around with the idea that what ever he's rebuilt might be aware so if the Khazad use the parts to build an extra steam tank, it would have the hero promotion and others as well. Of course then it might have the crazed promotion since the 'soul' would be a bit tortured at its fate.

Perhaps other races could 'trap' the soul and put it into a new body.

I'm sure there are lots of different things that could be done here.

 

[Imuratep]

Could be quite simple: When a Melee (his enchanted metal could be used as Armor), Siege Weapon or Golem Unit with the Pieces of Barnaxuspromotion enters a city with a forge it gains an additional promotion that grants +20% strength.
Right now you don't have anything from not giving the Golem back to the Luchuirp (except from him being no enemy) thus this is IMHO not a bad idea. But the Pieces of Barnaxus should not be able to destroyed without very big efforts (and a big diplopenalty or Autowardeclaration with Luchuirp). It's a keymechanic of this civ that has very big influence on the way they play
IMHO this influence should even be enhanced as Barnaxus very quickly is useless in war and thus has troubles to gain xp once he is rebuilt. I'd like him to be upgradable into any Golem type you can build while having a promotion that gives him a combat type (unless any other golem).
The coolest way to do this IMHO would be to have to separate units. Material components=equipment and base unit. So during the whole game Luchuirp can only build two units - the (Mud/Base) Golem and Barnaxus. But additionally they can build components (for equivalent to the Unit in FFH - for a Mud Golem). So to get a Wood Golem you have to research Construction. Then you build the Wood Armor Component that allows a Unit with the Golem promotion to upgrade to a Wood Golem, Iron Armor Component for Iron Golems etc. You could add other components like additional arms, acid thrower (analogue to the D&D iron golem, borers to build tunnels through mountains etc. if you want to enhance this theme.

 

[arkham4269]

Could be quite simple: When a Melee (his enchanted metal could be used as Armor), Siege Weapon or Golem Unit with the Pieces of Barnaxuspromotion enters a city with a forge it gains an additional promotion that grants +20% strength.
Right now you don't have anything from not giving the Golem back to the Luchuirp (except from him being no enemy) thus this is IMHO not a bad idea. But the Pieces of Barnaxus should not be able to destroyed without very big efforts (and a big diplopenalty or Autowardeclaration with Luchuirp). It's a key mechanic of this civ that has very big influence on the way they play that IMHO even should be enhanced as Barnaxus very quickly is useless in war and thus has troubles to gain xp once he is rebuilt.

Yeah, that was something I wondered about, I would give the pieces back and you'd expect a big diplomatic bonus but I never noticed them even noticing I did this. Plus, playing w/the tolerant trait I noticed I couldn't rebuilt Barnaxus myself in a conquered Luirchip city.

Yeah just because Barnaxus is old, I would think that perhaps as the Luichirp (I really hate that name; what sort of dwarven name is it anyway?) gain more tech, they are able to 'repair' many of Barnaxus' systems. I mean to me it's like having a robot/droid from an ancient, more advance Civ that is still functioning, but damaged and you don't know how to fix him. Yet as you advance, you are able to bring more of his sub-systems back online.

Thinking of golems as robots got me thinking, why can't the Luirchirp use their golems to create 'magical cyborgs'? I mean, lose some limbs in the wars, get new golem arms. Then you have to deal with 6,000,000 gold piece dwarves!

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Why should they? Nothing really supports that they could in the first place.

While I really think that having an advantage from capturing Barnexus would be great, recreating the entire golem system into a upgrade system sounds like a Bad Idea to me, both lore wise and game play.

Lore wise, Golems aren't upgraded by throwing new armor, they're built top-bottom. They are what they were made to be, nothing more and nothing less: that's why Mulcarn liked them, they represent stasis. Barnexus is the only exception, and most of what he does is teach the Luichirp and Golems to work better on the existing designs, nothing more. Special improvements are done during the construction phase, hence the workshop buildings. Nor is there any reason to think much similarity between golems of different types: a wood golem is never implied to be the size or stature of the Iron Golems, regardless of armor slapped on.


Gameplay wise, what's the point? The effect is introducing a whole mountainload of micromanagement, in matching units built to equipment sets built somewhere else, and as long as you make the components the same price of hammers as the intended unit, you're saving nothing. If you want an iron golem, you'll still spend the same amount of time building an iron golem. If you want a wood golem, you'll still spend time for a wood golem.

Now, I can sympathize with wanting more abilities. But the Luchirp already have their way of doing so: city-buildings to provide those features. If you must add more features to already-built Golems, and so violate their theme of stasis, then change/add buildings to let you upgrade the golems in a city with the necessary building. Constructing components has the same micromanagement and inefficency as mentioned above.

 

[arkham4269]

Why should they? Nothing really supports that they could in the first place.

I think you misunderstood my position. I wasn't saying that golems need promotions, I was just saying that Barnaxus has the problem of being weak and promotes slowly. This is manageable early in the game, but as it was pointed out, if destroyed, he's really at a disadvantage later in the game.

I was thinking that as certain techs came available, Barnaxus might automatically gain certain promotions/upgrades that way even if he is rebuilt later, he will be stronger later in the game then he was at the beginning, showing that the Luirchirp know more when putting him back together.

Plus, as you said, golems are created 'as is' and don't evolve, but Barnaxus was made long ago with technology/magic not available to the Luirchirp early on. Lore-wise it is thus conceivable that he was much more powerful than he is now. I mean the whole Age of Magic was supposedly a time of titanic struggles with dragons and the like and looking at Barnaxus as he is, well he'd barely be a footman to some of the Hero's of Yore. Now if he was originally much nastier but has gotten banged up, it makes sense he could be better repaired.

Plus, when you think about it, the problem with Barnaxus is that while a golem, is treated like a robot. While I understand the definition of an android is 'a robot in humanoid shape' I've always seen androids as synthetic people and that would fit golems. To me, golems aren't put together but are carved, grown, or otherwise sort of created as is like you said. I mean look at Boris. He can be 'remade' because he *is* created out of separate parts like a robot...or Barnaxus.

Which of course is why I never liked the Luirchirp making golems. To me golems are a magical creation, more of an alchemists creation than a bunch of dwarves working on a forge to put them together which is kind of how they are present in FfH.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

I was speaking more in regards to Imuratep for most of my post, not you. Apologies for not being clear.

 

[arkham4269]

I was speaking more in regards to Imuratep for most of my post, not you. Apologies for not being clear.

Sorry, that's what I get for posting while sloughing through my Criminology homework.

 

[Imuratep]

After reading I understand your point. I was just thinking about ways how to improve Barnaxus. As for him not the Material he is made of but his intelligence is important you could easily take the parts that are vital for it and implement it in a golem out of better materials. But you are probably right about the modular parts. That's more flavor for a robot (what Barnaxus is in certain ways) than for a golem.

Which of course is why I never liked the Luirchirp making golems. To me golems are a magical creation, more of an alchemists creation than a bunch of dwarves working on a forge to put them together which is kind of how they are present in FfH.

IIRC Luchuirp were gnomes in Kael's original campaign (as they are usually in most D&D lore), but Kael decided that gnomes were to similar to dwarves and that thus a gnome racial wasn't needed. Of course every modder can go a different way if he does not like this change. Luchuirp anyway do not have a lot of models that are dwarves as most of their units are golems. Surely there are a lot of good pictures for gnome leaders in the internet.

 

[Valkrionn]

Here's a thread with ideas for the Luchuirp:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=321611&highlight=luchuirp

 

[arkham4269]

Here's a thread with ideas for the Luchuirp:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=321611&highlight=luchuirp

Unfortunately the only idea that seemed a bit workable was the creating golems on the fly depending on the terrain which I think is going to be used for the new Dao in summoning smallish elementals depending where the caster is.

I was thinking that maybe the Calabim and/or Sheaim could take the pieces of Barnaxus and create a sort of weapon like Stormbringer where the trapped soul of Barnaxus is driven insane by being used for wanton destruction and gives some nasty promotion plus a AC jump.

Of course another type of event using Barnaxus could be that neutral or good races could have a chance (not a good one, but a chance) to rebuild Barnaxus themselves and thus enable them to build golems themselves. Perhaps they could just build the base golems and not the special buildings (which still require 'being Luirchirp' right? This could show that Barnaxus hasn't much time to teach them golem lore.

Either that or this event would create a new 'basic' golem about the strength somewhere above an axeman and below a heavy warrior that once built would get a random promotion to show how the unfamiliarity with making golems the new Civ is.

Now this might seem a bit powerful, but I would think that it is sort of similar to gaining Baron Halfmorn; let's face it, the race that gets him is at a serious advantage. I've had games where between the stacks of 4 barbarians showing up and having a weak civ with available with lots of tier 1 units to feed on allowed me to rely almost entirely on werewolves.

UPDATE: By the way, I'm thinking if we want to continue brainstorming on the Luirchirp (and the Sidar since the consensus is that they are boring) that we create a new thread to discuss changes to existing Civs.

 

[Imuratep]

Good idea. I will create one for the Luchuirp with some new ideas.

 

[arkham4269]

Good idea. I will create one for the Luchuirp with some new ideas.

Well you might want to make it something like "Changes to Civs Ideas" so it can be for other Civs too. Like I mentioned, it seems the Sidar are roundly seen as needing changes but we really haven't come up with much.

Personally I think the Sidar need a major reworking since Scions take the sort-of-dead concept and do it better.