Events - feedback needed

[Dean_the_Young]

A little one: EVENT_LIBRARY_FIRE requires Water Mana. It could use one more option, maybe evil only, giving change to save library while losing some (2-3, 1 seems not enough). "Save the books, they are more important than people !"

Why make it evil? Evil already has so many alignment specific choices, and this could easily be seen as a Good thing.

"Ask our firefighters to save as many books as they possibly can!", followed by a conclusion bit of "Many brave men lost their lives preserving irreplacable knowledge. Their sacrifice will be remembered in the new wing of the rebuilt Library."

 

[Kalina]

You're right, having more option for everyone makes event more intresting

 

[Dominicius]

I don't know. I'm usually a very serious dude when it comes to breaking of immersion or gaming stuff overall, but that one had me laughing.

When I play FFH I have more important thing on my mind than in-jokes. Like waging war or managing my empire for instance. I just pick whatever choice benefits me the most on move back the actual game.

Once you've seen an event over 10 times your eyes just glaze over it. Most of them are no brainers anyway.

 

[Kalina]

When I play FFH I have more important thing on my mind than in-jokes. Like waging war or managing my empire for instance. I just pick whatever choice benefits me the most on move back the actual game.

Once you've seen an event over 10 times your eyes just glaze over it. Most of them are no brainers anyway.

This is because I also thought about events where you have to actually make some effort to earn benefits. In BTS there are quest-events where you have to build some units or buildings to recive bonus. They were quite boring, but would be more more intresting if triggers were more diversified. For example, with religion quests, you'd have to bring AC to certain level (Ashen Veil), make x civs join Overcouncil (Empyrian), enslave x units (Octopus Overlords), conquer and convert x cities (Order) and so on. Those are flavorwise fitting conditions you should try to do anyway but doing this in given time might (and should) be difficult. But they are probably hard to code and beyond scope of events enchanting Ahwaric is planning

 

[Valkrionn]

I don't think quests like that are very hard, but I agree with Kael on them; Emergent quests are better.

What do I mean by Emergent? As in, start a game as Ljos. To your surprise, the Svarts are in game... You now have a 'quest' (Personal Goal?) to end the civil war. Nothing like the 'Build x, get z' crap from BtS.

That's also one reason I dislike the Mazatl/Cualli merge.....

 

[Opera]

I don't think quests like that are very hard, but I agree with Kael on them; Emergent quests are better.

What do I mean by Emergent? As in, start a game as Ljos. To your surprise, the Svarts are in game... You now have a 'quest' (Personal Goal?) to end the civil war. Nothing like the 'Build x, get z' crap from BtS.

That's also one reason I dislike the Mazatl/Cualli merge.....

I don't why you couldn't have both

BTS "crappy" quests are fine if the reward is good enough. I'd prefer perfectly working quests like those rather than half-made half-bugged 'complex' quests.

 

[Valkrionn]

I don't why you couldn't have both

BTS "crappy" quests are fine if the reward is good enough. I'd prefer perfectly working quests like those rather than half-made half-bugged 'complex' quests.

You can. I just said that emergent ones are better.

Personally, I hate the crappy little quests like BtS made. They're completely arbitrary, and boring as hell.

A quest I do like would be something like the Gela quest Black_Imperator made....
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=315251

 

[Ahwaric]

I don't think quests like that are very hard, but I agree with Kael on them; Emergent quests are better.
What do I mean by Emergent? As in, start a game as Ljos. To your surprise, the Svarts are in game... You now have a 'quest' (Personal Goal?) to end the civil war. Nothing like the 'Build x, get z' crap from BtS.

This situation is not a quest at all for me. It is just flavoured gameplay - you do not get anything. Now, if you get a reward for doing just that - i.e. you decide to go for the svarts instread of that weak sheaim next door, and you get some bonus (i.e. ability to build special building, special promotions for units) - that is a nice quest for me. Best with some introductory & final description

That's also one reason I dislike the Mazatl/Cualli merge.....

I know that
The split has potential. But so does having them as one civ, playing really differently depending on aligment (fall & atonement). I know that FF backgroung for them is different (well, the same race but survived Ice age by different means). But the difference is smaller I think than for elves. And you can still force good & evil leaders into game.
Regardless, now there is no actuall event so the split or unification is not relevant. And the civs separated are simply boring.

I don't why you couldn't have both

You can. I just said that emergent ones are better.

If they are really quests...

Personally, I hate the crappy little quests like BtS made. They're completely arbitrary, and boring as hell.

These are for flavour, and I like them. I do not like quests that force you to do/have something or have just one option that does something.
Like have nature magic or suffer. Have AV as state religion or the quest is not relevant... These are really boring & annoying.

A quest I do like would be something like the Gela quest Black_Imperator made....
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=315251

I know, like this one too. Merged the whole mod into Orbis a long time ago
Personally, I think we have space for:

• Flavour notifications (like the ones at AV rising), but also some random ones with very minor gameplay effect
• Small, one time events(with several options to deal with them)
• event chains - I like city feud chain - nice flavour, possibly good rewards, you can influence the outcome; same applies to gaelan if it actually fires...
• Gameplay started quests - captured special building or item, have to deal with it
• Economy/war related epic quests - encountered dire enemy and have to destroy it, built special building and get quest to discover x tech as first civ or have y number of z buildings, but with nice backstory and explanation plus granting some nice bonus

By the way people, thanks for all the feedback regarding events (and other stuff in other threads)!
Once I am free to mod again (two weeks...), I am going to put all this info into good use.

 

[Valkrionn]

This situation is not a quest at all for me. It is just flavoured gameplay - you do not get anything. Now, if you get a reward for doing just that - i.e. you decide to go for the svarts instread of that weak sheaim next door, and you get some bonus (i.e. ability to build special building, special promotions for units) - that is a nice quest for me. Best with some introductory & final description

Yes, some kind of reward would be nice. I have something in mind, but it's not possible yet...

I know that
The split has potential. But so does having them as one civ, playing really differently depending on aligment (fall & atonement). I know that FF backgroung for them is different (well, the same race but survived Ice age by different means). But the difference is smaller I think than for elves. And you can still force good & evil leaders into game.
Regardless, now there is no actuall event so the split or unification is not relevant. And the civs separated are simply boring.

And I have plans to improve them, as I think I've sent you.

If they are really quests...

These are for flavour, and I like them. I do not like quests that force you to do/have something or have just one option that does something.
Like have nature magic or suffer. Have AV as state religion or the quest is not relevant... These are really boring & annoying.

I agree, but those aren't quests in my mind; They're one-time events. A good quest event should have multiple different options.

I know, like this one too. Merged the whole mod into Orbis a long time ago
Personally, I think we have space for:

• Flavour notifications (like the ones at AV rising), but also some random ones with very minor gameplay effect
• Small, one time events(with several options to deal with them)
• event chains - I like city feud chain - nice flavour, possibly good rewards, you can influence the outcome; same applies to gaelan if it actually fires...
• Gameplay started quests - captured special building or item, have to deal with it
• Economy/war related epic quests - encountered dire enemy and have to destroy it, built special building and get quest to discover x tech as first civ or have y number of z buildings, but with nice backstory and explanation plus granting some nice bonus

By the way people, thanks for all the feedback regarding events (and other stuff in other threads)!
Once I am free to mod again (two weeks...), I am going to put all this info into good use.

The only events listed there I dislike are the 'epic quests'... Though done correctly (Interesting, not pointless exercises like in BtS), they can be nice too.

I suppose my points could be boiled down to: If you want quests fine, but make the damn things interesting.

 

[arkham4269]

(I'm not feeling well today so this may be a bit disjointed.)

I was thinking that perhaps some of the scenarios could be used as a basis for quests that would enable heroes. Maybe instead of just being building heroes, one would have to do something to actually get them. Either that or have new semi-civ specific heroes on top of what we have now.

I know I'm not articulating this well but I'm thinking of Decius. If he isn't in the game as a leader, the Bannor, Malakim or Calabim could get a quest involving him. For the Bannor, you'd have to send him on a trial to prove his innocence. For the Malakim, it might be to prove he's not some sort of wolf in Hero's clothes. For the Calabim, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=322196 shows that perhaps he'd have to go defeat some hill giants.

Perhaps it could be something less move a unit around but do something to unlock him. For the Calabim, they'd have to accomplish a hard espionage mission to 'corrupt' him. For the Bannor maybe you would have a "Decius" unit and you'd have to get him to the Pool of Tears to purify him and have a certain amount of time to do it otherwise he'd leave.

Anyway, I was just thinking a some of the minor leaders or great generals (I'm thinking of Rhyianna the Witch-lord) would be cool as a sort of separate hero like Korianna instead of just being great generals.

Another idea is (broken record time again) if a commander system (either FF or my favorite, the HoTK system) is put in perhaps a Civ still gets great generals like normal (which could be used as they are now) but to get a great commander (which can build armies) you need to complete a quest to get that hero.

Now since the AI is ********, perhaps if a AI Civ gets a quests, they'd have a flat % chance to complete it so they'd have access to them as well.

 

[Valkrionn]

(I'm not feeling well today so this may be a bit disjointed.)

I was thinking that perhaps some of the scenarios could be used as a basis for quests that would enable heroes. Maybe instead of just being building heroes, one would have to do something to actually get them. Either that or have new semi-civ specific heroes on top of what we have now.

I know I'm not articulating this well but I'm thinking of Decius. If he isn't in the game as a leader, the Bannor, Malakim or Calabim could get a quest involving him. For the Bannor, you'd have to send him on a trial to prove his innocence. For the Malakim, it might be to prove he's not some sort of wolf in Hero's clothes. For the Calabim, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=322196 shows that perhaps he'd have to go defeat some hill giants.

Perhaps it could be something less move a unit around but do something to unlock him. For the Calabim, they'd have to accomplish a hard espionage mission to 'corrupt' him. For the Bannor maybe you would have a "Decius" unit and you'd have to get him to the Pool of Tears to purify him and have a certain amount of time to do it otherwise he'd leave.

Anyway, I was just thinking a some of the minor leaders or great generals (I'm thinking of Rhyianna the Witch-lord) would be cool as a sort of separate hero like Korianna instead of just being great generals.

Another idea is (broken record time again) if a commander system (either FF or my favorite, the HoTK system) is put in perhaps a Civ still gets great generals like normal (which could be used as they are now) but to get a great commander (which can build armies) you need to complete a quest to get that hero.

Now since the AI is ********, perhaps if a AI Civ gets a quests, they'd have a flat % chance to complete it so they'd have access to them as well.

Personally, 'my' idea for a good quest reward (Going back to the emergent "Ljos vs Svarts" idea again) would be to unlock a field marshal when you finish them off. Of course, this requires Grey Fox to finish the Field Marshals... Would also need something I'm planning to do it they way I'd like. What I have planned should let us make emergent quests FAR better. I'll send Ahwaric a pm, and invite him to the wave about it... Just one project left before I start work on it. Will do more than just make quests better, as it's the kind of project I'm planning to completely redesign RifE around.....

 

[arkham4269]

Since I like to play the Scions and the Mechanos, you get use to have the semi-leader in Korianna and Fenris. Personally I sort of like having Civ specific units but then making you have to 'work' for them might make it a bit more fun.

For example, perhaps to 'unleash' Korinna, the Scions have to complete a quest so it's just not automatic.

Perhaps before one can build Boris or Goliath, the Mechanos have to go fetch the right type of brain or have to get some sort of power source for Goliath, maybe send a adeptus to the Pyre of Bhiall and back.

Of course perhaps some of these quests could be used to just add to existing units. In the above with Goliath, perhaps if you complete the quest it unlocks a really cool promotion that you'd either wise not be able to get.

Heh, maybe for Boris after you build him, you need to find him a 'bride' or after a certain amount of turns he'll get the enraged promotion till you do. So then you'd be stuck sort of like the Scions are with Alcinius with a unit they get back if killed, but mostly can't use because he's enraged. To make this quest a bit more fun, you might have to send a unit to different other Civ's capitol and than have to pay a different price. On returning, if Boris accepts the bride (a % chance) then depending on the Civ perhaps Boris would gain a free promotion. If his bride comes from the Hippus maybe a mobility promotion.

 

[Valkrionn]

That would probably be too limiting. Could work for new heroes/units/whatever, but I wouldn't change civ-specific heroes that way.

 

[Kalina]

These are for flavour, and I like them. I do not like quests that force you to do/have something or have just one option that does something.
Like have nature magic or suffer. Have AV as state religion or the quest is not relevant... These are really boring & annoying.

Not what I had in mind The way quests work in BTS is something like 'build x of y in z turns to get reward. Also, if you have certain wonder you get better reward." In Orbis this would be something like "rise AC to x level in y turns. Also, if you have AV as state religion you get better reward." It's not something like building 5 harbors in BTS Of course, easiest way to rise AC is to spread AV, but razing cities, building things (Pillar of Chains, Purge Unfaithful, Prophecy of Ragnarok and building units) and chosing certain options in other events also work. And you have to decide if reward is tempting enough to switch religion to AV and get better reward For me, it sounds like lots of decisions to be made and not very boring.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Emergent quests do sound interesting. And there's a rather simple but appropriate reward for them: besides simply Great People or free buildings, golden ages could be a very nice reward. Proof of the peak of a civilization, if you will.

Hm. Special quests for each civ could be interesting indeed:

Svarts/Ljosalfar: Ending the Civil War could be good, and the reward could be based on how you do it. A conquest victory, for example, gets you a Great General. Vassalization gets you something. The biggest reward, I think, should go to a Permanent Alliance. And I do mean a Big reward.

Mercurians: Beating the Infernals and Ashen Veil. Once the Ashen Veil holy city is razed/captured, the Infernals vanquished, and no more AV state religions...

And so on.

 

[arkham4269]

That would probably be too limiting. Could work for new heroes/units/whatever, but I wouldn't change civ-specific heroes that way.

That's what I was thinking, more for newer heroes so as not to whack what's already in place. Same for the idea of Great Commander's as opposed to Great Generals. GG would be used to build the specialty building or create armies whereas Great Commanders could only be used to create armies.

I would think that the metric would have to be changed to reflect GG's being a Great Person that one gets randomly based on your buildings and the like and GC you'd get from a accumulation of combat victory points. I'm thinking the amount of 'war' buildings like stables, training yards and the like would improve your chance of GG's instead of putting in specific specialists towards them.

 

[Ahwaric]

The only events listed there I dislike are the 'epic quests'... Though done correctly (Interesting, not pointless exercises like in BtS), they can be nice too.
I suppose my points could be boiled down to: If you want quests fine, but make the damn things interesting.

I think we agree here. The quests should be interesting - or none at all
Especially that you will get them probably more than once.

Svarts/Ljosalfar: Ending the Civil War could be good, and the reward could be based on how you do it. A conquest victory, for example, gets you a Great General. Vassalization gets you something. The biggest reward, I think, should go to a Permanent Alliance. And I do mean a Big reward.
Mercurians: Beating the Infernals and Ashen Veil. Once the Ashen Veil holy city is razed/captured, the Infernals vanquished, and no more AV state religions...

Actually, these are really great ideas
I will try to implement this kind of quests once I have enough time...

Not what I had in mind The way quests work in BTS is something like 'build x of y in z turns to get reward. Also, if you have certain wonder you get better reward."

I know, was thinking of the events, so mixed these two. But you are right, and AC quest is nice, too. But we will have to make sure that the quest is something special, not something you anyway trying to reach a victory condition (gone to hell or simply conquest if Sheaim)

 

[Nor'easter]

@Ahwaric:

I'm not entirely sure what direction you want to go here. In the first post of this thread you specifically mentioned the Constellation events and Mana events as a problem. One way to deal with those would be to make them less frequent, such as by having more early-game events available, so the Constellation and Mana events would happen less often.

You could take a look at the "Ideas Needed: Common Events" thread in the main FfH2 forum for ideas (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=262009). It's been a while since Kael added new events to the main mod, but you might find some stuff there that you'd like -- if that's the direction in which you want to go, i.e., having more events available to make others less frequent.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Looking into more ideas for Emergent quests...

Civ: Quest Name: Objective: Reason

Lanun: Quest of Coves lace a pirate cove into the borders of every sea-trading empire : As much a demonstration of the Lanun's ability to go anywhere as it is the wide-spread nature of their naval presence, once achieved, no one can deny the Lanun are masters of the seas.

Alternate: Get a pirate cove onto every inhabited continent, preferably with a check that every sea-touching empire would be able to trade with one if they were a city.

Reward: Naturally, the more continents and civs there are, the longer/harder it will take, which is why I suggest a scaling reward. No one thing would be enough, but possible rewards (adding more based on number of civs/continents Cove'd), could include extra trade route, better trading conditions with AI, free ships, Golden Age, etc.




Khazad : Metal Might : Have culture control of at least one of every metal type : Dwarves and their metals. Variety of sources. Etc. etc. Interestingly enough, this doesn't require you have the resource improved, or even know that you do. You won't have to get to mithril working to get credit for mitril, for example. You'll have to be lucky, use Dowsing (is that Ritual in Orbis?), or have some other means for finding where they might be.


Reward: I think an extra few metal resources would be good. Either randomized, or selectable, based on what the player finds most usable.

 

[Imuratep]

Like those from D&D? (Adamantium, Alchemical silver, Cold Iron and Darksteel)