Evolving Civ Traits

Originally posted by Shyrramar
I went to a course about proper criticism. The lecturer said, that "just agree with judgement, rephrase his points for a personal, intelligent touch, and you'll be fine!" How am I doing? ;)
EDIT: Oh yeah, judgement, this is as good a place as any to ask you to check the "Unified Economy Theory"-thread somewhere here. I would love to hear your opinions/comments about that. But be warned: it is quite long, so remember to grab some popcorns and coke before you get on with it!

You're doing great :lol: :lol:

I'll have to check out that other thread a little later, gotta grab some lunch now...
 
This system abandons changing traits mostly/possbily completely. The current complaint w/the trait system is that many times it does not fit the environment that the civ is in(Expansionist on Islands, etc.). My system would involve an individual analysis of each player start location and nearby vicinity to determine traits that would likely evolve. I will give examples of what i mean:

Expansionist - Assigned if you are on a large land-mass.
Seafaring - island or coastal
Agricultural - river with mostly food producers(Flood Plains, Grassland)
Industrious - lots of forests(no need to develop squares to produce)
Scientific - lots of squares that need develooping(Desert, Hill, Mountains, Tundra)
Commercial - River or coast with luxuries
Militaristic - near lots of neighbors or barbarians
Religious - this is probably the weakest condition - Very strong start location(at least one or two super food and super production squares ie. Grain on floodplain and iron)

This does mean that civs that can excel one way can really excel, but its more historically interesting. Many civs on a medium-sized continent would likely be militaristic. This fits with the crowded continetn of Europe. Imagine, starting as Japan, you would likely be Scientific and Seafaring. Egypt would be either Agricultural and Expansionist or Agricultural and Scientific.
 
hello?
a lot of these ideas aren't exclusive, there's no reason why you couldn't start with traits like you do now and have them develope over time
if the traits were anoloug (.361) insted of binary (yes/no) values you could have different levels of each trait which are subject to groth and decay depending on how your empire is setup. if you started out as militaristic if you didn't play that way you'd slowly loose it.
don't use this point system to choose weather you have each trait, use the points directly, have the length of a revoloution be reduced proportionally to the amount of points you have in "religious", and the chance to produce a great leader incerased by your militaristic score, and have all city improvements cost's decreased by your score in the apropriate trait and have golden ages caused by building wonders who's traits are in line with yours.
of course i don't expect cIV to work that similarly to civ III these are just some farmiliar examples.
 
Originally posted by sir_schwick

Expansionist - Assigned if you are on a large land-mass.
Seafaring - island or coastal
Agricultural - river with mostly food producers(Flood Plains, Grassland)
Industrious - lots of forests(no need to develop squares to produce)
Scientific - lots of squares that need develooping(Desert, Hill, Mountains, Tundra)
Commercial - River or coast with luxuries
Militaristic - near lots of neighbors or barbarians
Religious - this is probably the weakest condition - Very strong start location(at least one or two super food and super production squares ie. Grain on floodplain and iron)

Or just have the traits develope quicker with a smaller population, which makes sense if you think about psychological momentum, so they'll develope when you have a small population but will be harder to change as the game goes on.
 
Originally posted by sir_schwick

Imagine, starting as Japan, you would likely be Scientific and Seafaring.
Sorry, but I can't resist pointing out the irony that (for most of its history at least) neither of these traits would be a very good fit for Japan. Seafaring, maybe, since the Japanese have always gotten a lot of food from the sea, but they certainly didn't set out to explore the high seas the way that other civs did (like some that are seafaring in the game: England, Carthage, Vikings, Spain, etc). And, while modern Japan is a very technological society, historical Japan probably wouldn't be considered as scientifically oriented as many other civs.

The reality is that, although the terrain in which a civilization developes influences the character of that civ and its people, it does so in a very complex way that is not easily reduced to simple game mechanics. Despite the fact that England and Japan are both island nations, the character of the two is very different, because many other factors also come into play. In some cases (your example of continental Europe was a good one) the traits given by your system would be historically apt, but in other cases, they wouldn't be right at all.

And while its true that there is a complaint about starting locations not matching traits well, this could just as easily be solved by adjusting the starting positions based on traits instead of the other way around. Personally, I would rather pick the type of civ I play instead of having it given to me by the game based on a random starting position.
 
There are essentially two different idea being debated here: whether starting traits are good or bad, and whether traits should evolve. Leaving my own opinions aside for a moment (I've made them clear in other posts, I guess) lets see if I can sum up the basic arguments:

Starting Traits

For: More control over what your civ is like from the beginning. Easier to make one game different from the next: just pick a different civ.

Against: Can result in poor match between traits and starting location. Also, less realistic: traits should develop based on civ's history, not be there from the start.

Evolving Traits

For: Add a touch of realism: the traits of real civilizations have changed over time. Add a mechanism to adapt your civ better to the conditions (starting terrain, neighbors, etc) you find yourself in.

Against: Could complicates thing. Isn't really necessary since the game already has lots of choices and rewards those choices by making your civ stronger at different things (for example, building lots of barracks gives you a strong military, so switching to militaristic trait is somewhat redundant).

Have I missed anything here?
 
When I posted earlier, I had only read the first page of the post, so I did not realize I had practically repeated another's idea. AFter reading somemore, here is a revision. Also I did know Japan never fit eithe rof those traits, but I was trying to show how the engine would still be game-like, instead of uber-realistic.

=======================

The Will of the Player

I understand many of you do not want the ability to choose traits taken away. Others want it adjusted to terrain. Here is a compormise: CivIV gives you both options.

The first option is one where you choose your trait(s)(more on this in a minute) and your starting location favors them.

The second option is where you let it choose one/two for you, and the starting location favors it/them.

=========================

Evolving vs. Pre-Determined

Once agian the argument against Pre-determined is that it makes sometimes for a bad start. Arguments against evolving is the complexity and possible exploitation.

Here is again, another compromise. One trait will be pre-set as detailed above. it will be one of a set of "Terrain" traits. This trait will be unique for each city, but cities with similair terrain traits will have empathy for flipping, civil war purposes.

The other trait is a "society focus" trait. This trait would also be unique, city by city. It would be based on the majority population in a trait. How population affects traits would be defined below. It would be possible that a city would have two of the same trait. In this case, the city has a super-trait, a jacked up bonus from the certain trait. In the real world this would mean that really industrial areas would develop, such as Detroit. It also means that big places of learning might develop.

============================

Population Trait Theory

Here is a basic on how people in a population would be associated with a culture and the traits. There are two kinds of trait a city has: Terrain Trait, a Social Trait. Checks for trait designation for each city woudl be made every ten generations after its creation, any time it is conquered or flips, and when its cultural borders expand. Ten generations would proabably be 5 turns in the Ancient Era, 100 in the Industiral. The time would be calculate based on average life span, possibly calculated city by city.

AS population grows, citizens identify with one kind of trait. Whenever this growth happens, an upkeep window would ask you to assign the new population into a trait category. This same process would also occur when buliding a settler or worker, who would maintain the chosen trait.

The Terrain trait would be based purely on the terrain in the cities cultural radius. This means that a cities terrain trait might change over time if lots of luxuries are absorbed into the radius, or many forests, or flood plains over a square or two. What kind of terrain would make a trait was roughtly detailed in my earlier post. When prompted to assign a new citizens trait, you can choose to place them as a "peasant" as part of the terrain trait. If the type of trait the terrain produces changes, then any new citizens can be placed as "peasants" of the new trait the terrain would produce. Whenever the number of "peasants" of a certain trait are the most numberous or tie with another, the designation can change whenever that is checked(see above). If its a tie, you choose which you would prefer.

The Social trait would be a little more player action based. In most societies exist the "proletariat" and the "bourgeise sei"(i have no idea how to spell it). Most of the proletariat simply work the terrain and do not spend much time at institutions of theology, libraries, or barracks. There would be a higher circle of citizens who were the academicians, military officers, and priests. Whenever a new building is created, it can house a certain amount of citizens. Whenever a new citizen is born, you can also assign citizens to these buildings, where they will pick up the trait. Whenever a check is made on trait designation, relative numbers of citizens with social traits would be compared. Ties would be handled the same way as above. Early building limits would make most of the city/town proletariat. Technology and new buildings would greatly increase this number over time.

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How does this city-individual system affect civ abilities?

This is hard to say. Making units have a home city would be unnessecarily complicated. My solution is that most of the benefits would only apply to units in the cities cultural radius. Since cultural radi can overlap, its possible to create a super-trait zone, where workers and military units are really powerful
 
I've been thinking that a good way to evole your civ would be to implement the idea into the tech tree.

As it stands, the tech tree has required techs and optional techs. If you add "bonus" techs, they could add flavor to your tribe. For example, if a player wanted to spend the time researching bonus religious techs, then his civ would become more of a religious tribe, gaining the associated benifits (cheaper temples, cathedrals, etc.) This could be implemented for the other traits as well.

Also, you could use bonus techs to provide unique units. If, after discovering Iron Working you researched "Heavy Armor", it would increase the defensive value of your Swordsmen and give you Legionnares! To be fair, you should only be able to create one unique unit per game but the chioce would be up to the player. As well, the first civ to research that particular tech would be the only civ allowed to use it ("unique", right?)

To prevent a player from researching all of the bonus techs, I have come up with a cap. Once any civ progresses to the next age, all bonus (but not "optional", see above) tech in the previous age would be unavailable to all other civs. That would force a player who spends too much time beefing up their civ with bonus techs to play catchup. Also, these bonus techs would have no trade value: if you could trade them for others, than each civ would be the same!

This could present interesting game ideas. Do you spend time researching and bonus techs at all, or do you just bee-line it to the end of the tech tree and build a space ship? The choice is left to the player, which I think is very important.

p.s. I like the SMAC government system :)
 
I like the idea of getting your UU by bonus tech. This would really add a flavor to the game which is missing. Why, for instance, must it have been the Romans who came up with Legionaires? Why not the Americans, at least in cIV? You could make it that each UU had a tech assigned to it and only 15-20% of the civs (rounded up) could actually get that tech. Also, as you described, trading these techs would be forbidden.

Once the maximum amount of civs acheived a UU tech, the ability to get the tech shuts off and any who are still researching it would have all of their science switched to a different tech (as per the science advisor or asking the player).
 
Actually some of what you are talking about is implemented in a wonderful way in Europa Universalis II.

If you never played that game I really recommend it.. I find it a lot more realistic than Civ, although it is quite a different feel in the game, its is more static in the sense that there are no random maps, only earth and so on. But the game does have a lot of many good ideas worth checking out/getting inspired by that I would like to see in Civilization.

For instance you have a set of sliders that control your country in different manners like liberalism on one side of the slider and conservatism on the other.

There are a multitude of these sliders and I really cant remember all of them but the main idea is that you can change these sliders how ever you want them but there are various restraints. For instance you can only change them a bit at a time. Then people have to get used to these changes before you can change them again. And if I remember correctly it costs to change them too much. In terms of stability... Im not totally sure though if I remember that correctly, been a while since I played that.

One interesting thing to notice in this system is that you cannot directly set a slider to make your country/civilization a scientific one. You have to sit down and think for a while, "What makes a good scientific Civ?" ... so sliders that increase personal freedom often encourage scientific discovery but you have to pay for that as well, personal freedom means your people will not be as good at other things, and they will probably rebell if you try to force them into various things. So there are always subtle drawbacks, and subtle advantages as well.

I really recommend you check this game out though, it complements Civ in areas where Civ is weak and Civ complements Europa Universalis II where it is weak. If I could ever get a game that is a perfect mix of these two, plus a lot of other marvelous suggestions on this forum I would be fired from my work, I promise :P
 
Originally posted by rcoutme
I like the idea of getting your UU by bonus tech. This would really add a flavor to the game which is missing. Why, for instance, must it have been the Romans who came up with Legionaires? Why not the Americans, at least in cIV? You could make it that each UU had a tech assigned to it and only 15-20% of the civs (rounded up) could actually get that tech. Also, as you described, trading these techs would be forbidden.

Once the maximum amount of civs acheived a UU tech, the ability to get the tech shuts off and any who are still researching it would have all of their science switched to a different tech (as per the science advisor or asking the player).

This will start to get off topic, so be warned. I think they should go to a system more like SMAC. Units should be designed with a basic mix of Chasis(man, horse, tread, galley), Weapons/Equipment(Construction Packs, Cannons, Swords, Automatic Rifles), Powerplant where applicable(One Cylinder Steam Piston, Gasoline Engine, Diesel Engine, Nuclear Reactor, Turbo-Propellers, Solid Rocket Boosters), Armour(Iron Mail, Leather, Flak Suits, Iron Deck Plating, Aircraft Aluminum). Units would also get a number of tactical specialties based on experience level. These tacitcal specialties would be bonuses against a certain enemy. The specialty would be limited ot a certain type of Chasis that is only Attacking or Defending(no single bonus against both). Also only against certain weapons or equipment and armour. These tactical specialties would evolves every time they were utilized on the battlefield, much like experience. When an elite unit increased two or three of its specialties to max level(probably 3), then a unique unit is born. UUs then could be produced as elites with maxed out specialtes. These units would lose their level 3 tactics when upgrade, however.

This system models the real world in that the UU of civilizations were those that were most effective for the civ.
 
I found that part of SMAC (Unit Design) to be the most annoying. It was hard enough to micromanage all of my bases, let alone worry about the design characteristics of my units. I just figured that this would be a simple way for a player to develop a UU of their choice. Unless, of course, the AI beats you to it. ;)
 
The idea of bonus techs determining unique units is great. It is a perfect complement to evolving civ traits. This could give players freedom of unit design without the complexities of all out unit customization. Great idea.
 
Yes, I've found that people think that in order to make the game better it has to be more complex. Not so, says I. The game has many tool that have not been put to full use (the tech tree, for example ) ;)
 
:cool: :cool: :cool:

Maybe I finally came up with a good idea (takes whatever praise he sees and sprinkles it on himself).

:D :D :D :D
 
I think that losing a trait is unlikly, once a civ learn's somthing they dont usialy lose it, this could be dicribed by any form of evolution. Now I also think that if a civ is comercial and never use it because they'r too buisy killing off those damn Azteck's cause they just up and attcked you then, if you take 50 turn's to finaly kill them and you learned militeristic trait in the first 20 turns then, your addvissor pop's up with a frown and says sire we'v forgotten the comeercial trait, somone should have been paying attention to the comerce of our nation.
 
Originally posted by loco-newf
Yes, I've found that people think that in order to make the game better it has to be more complex. Not so, says I. The game has many tool that have not been put to full use (the tech tree, for example ) ;)

I have to agree! I like the idea of Evolving Civ traits but the idea of having individual civs each with their preferred trait would be a nightmare!!! :eek:

Originally posted by taltho
I think that losing a trait is unlikly, once a civ learn's somthing they dont usialy lose it, this could be dicribed by any form of evolution. Now I also think that if a civ is comercial and never use it because they'r too buisy killing off those damn Azteck's cause they just up and attcked you then, if you take 50 turn's to finaly kill them and you learned militeristic trait in the first 20 turns then, your addvissor pop's up with a frown and says sire we'v forgotten the comeercial trait, somone should have been paying attention to the comerce of our nation.

Also a very good point. You may be about to unleash a killer diplomatic statergy which is suddenly unhinged because one of your traits flips because you've one too many frigates or an AI civ is attacking one of your cities with a single longbowman AGAIN! Evolving traits should be chosen not imposed! (See it as the government "steering" public opinion, and don't DARE tell me democratic Govs don't ever do this!!!).

Civs do change over time (for example Celtic civ to Engish civ. The English didn't invade England and settle here. We evolved over time.
 
I have skipped some of the pages (for there is much to read), but I have an idea

What is we took a more soft look at the point system. As it stands in civ 3 a scientific civ automaticly gets 10 shilds of the cost of a library. Instead of the point system directly giving you the scientific trait and then getting 10 shilds knocked off it oculd be a more gradual system.

For example: Civ A managed to collect 1000 points so far in the game, and the largest chunk (33%) is scientific points. After doing some number crunching libraries are 10% cheaper. Civ B, being a small civ, only earned 100 points so far in the game, and like the larger civ has most of it points in the science area, but a whopping 50%. Libraries are 30% cheaper than the normal cost.

Now if Civ B wanted to change its play style and become more expantionist, it would be more easy to do so (more points in the expantionist catagory would cause more of a change to the % than it would with a civ with more total points).


The advantages to a system like this is that bigger is not always better. More total points make it harder to change. However the disavatage I can see is there could be a lot of trait switching in the early game. One way to get around this is to have a random (or maybe part random, part based on starting terrain) distrabution of points for each civ. Also earning points could also have a random factor thrown in too that could represent cultural forces that the player doesn't have direct control over, or may not even see in game. Government changes, if made even a more serious matter, could also have an impact. Specific governments could be more or less sencitive to changes.
 
While I don't agree that Unit Design was the most annoying part of SMAC, I do see that the system would greatly complicate the game. I do like the idea of being able to research unique bonus techs for being unique. Here is an idea that would be easy(relatively) for gameplay flow, and make civs more and more unique.

With all research there would be "Universal Knowledge". This knowledge would include how to construct the current suite of buildings, and all the "Base Units" of which uniques would be derived(warrior, horsemen, archer, cavalry, tank, jet, transport, destroyer, worker, settler, etc.). Like in MOO2, with each research you would be able to choose one(probably two or three depedning on tech in Civ4) of many applications of the major research. These Include:

-Upgrade for a part of a base unit's A/D/M. These new units are unique, but other civs can have similair versions(just so ppl couldn't use tech race to block out others militaries). Multiple upgrades could be applied to UU. Most likely there might be one or two for each unit.
-Unique ability for a unit. A good example might be "ignores ZOC", "explorer movement", "extra transport capacity", "double work speed","generates culture(?)".
-Unit cost reduction. This is an example of miniturization. Perhaps Swordsman would cost 15 shields less.
-Unit requirement eliminated. This would be Knights not requiring Horses(Samurai).
-Building cost reduction. Construction might make one of several buildings cost a certain amount of shields less.
-Building requirement reduction. This one is questionable, but maybe it could take away Iron for Factory or Saltpeter from Coastal Fortress.
-Building given unique bonus. Factory produce 75%, or causes 50% less pollution. Barracks make one unit of happiness(militant society).
-A civilization wide bonus. Free technology at start of new age(probably from Literature). Units gain experience faster. Mountains and Hills generate extra shields.
-A resource bonus. A single square of resources generates 2 or more of that kind(useful for trading out). You discover a method so that you always have a certain resource, no matter where you are.
-A loyalty bonus. Your nationals assimilate more slowly into other cultures, even more cultured cultures. More resistors when cities are captured. Flip chances reduced.
-An appeal bonus. Nationals assimilate faster into your culture. You flip more opponent cities.

With each tech there might be 4 or 5 choices to choose from. Whenever you aquire a tech from tech/espionage, you make a choice of how to apply it.

How does this apply to civ traits? Each choice except unit ones and select ones would be associated with one trait or another. Once a certain amount of traits of certain kinds were selected, your civ would have that trait. If a different trait started to dominant that one, it would gain the ultimate status. The big civ traits would have really good bonuses. This system might be to easy to manipulate, so sensitivity of chanign traits would have to be adjusted.
 
Originally posted by genghis_khev
Civs do change over time (for example Celtic civ to Engish civ. The English didn't invade England and settle here. We evolved over time.

This is probably off topic, but the English and the Celts are two different people. English people are anglo-saxons, and that would make them one of the germanic tribes. Anglo-saxons did kind of "invade" England. That would explain why Irish language is of different language group than English...

About this talk of UUs. I think it is getting way too complicated to make research-systems that would allow the constructing of unique units. UUs are just a minor, albeit interesting and fun, part of the game. To wholly redesign research of Civ (which I find kind of nice and simple, don't you people? If not, what's wrong with it?) is in my opinion a bit too much. MOO2-style research is not good in Civ, as in Civs we re-live history - it would be somewhat unrealistic and unnecessary to make you choose what you research and what not. It could work into some extent, but I doubt it would be fun to have so many technologies implemented into the game as the unique units and buildings and other would need. Or am I missing something here?
 
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