Agreed. Each UU requiring a different tech would probably make a cool mod, but it would overly complicate the tech tree for the standard game. Re-working the whole concept of the tech tree just to address this issue would be even worse. The basic concepts of research have been the same in all three Civ games - I don't see them changing dramatically for cIV.
Evolving Civ Traits
- Thread starter Stefanskantine
- Start date
Agreed. Each UU requiring a different tech would probably make a cool mod, but it would overly complicate the tech tree for the standard game. Re-working the whole concept of the tech tree just to address this issue would be even worse. The basic concepts of research have been the same in all three Civ games - I don't see them changing dramatically for cIV.
Keep in mind that the wole idea of putting UU into the tech tree is that you can only ever research one. Once you have made your choice of UU, that's it. The others are off limits.
Maybe it should be the same for civ traits as well. Researching Religious traits in the Ancient Age makes your tribe a Religious one. And maybe you should only be able to research two of those.
I kind of wanted to give the player those choices after they have played a few turns. Certain factors like starting position, proximity to other civs, etc. may make certain choices better than others.
Also, two warring factions who have not chosen a UU yet may get locked in an arms race
Maybe it should be the same for civ traits as well. Researching Religious traits in the Ancient Age makes your tribe a Religious one. And maybe you should only be able to research two of those.
I kind of wanted to give the player those choices after they have played a few turns. Certain factors like starting position, proximity to other civs, etc. may make certain choices better than others.
Also, two warring factions who have not chosen a UU yet may get locked in an arms race
rcoutme
Emperor
I agree with loco-newf. Since a civ would only be allowed one UU and since several civs might have the same UU, not all that many techs would be required. Certainly in Civ3, many of the UU's come up in the same research tech (i.e. immortals and legions, Riders and elephant warriors and samurai etc.).
That's not exactly what I had in mind...
I was thinking that a tech could be attached to each UU available in the game. Place them on a seperate page from the main tech tree, if that would clairify matters. My point is this: if your tribe researched the tech corresponding to Immortals, then that would be your UU for the rest of the game. No one else could build Immortals, but you would no longer be able to research another UU. Of course, many UUs would have prerequisite techs.
I was thinking that a tech could be attached to each UU available in the game. Place them on a seperate page from the main tech tree, if that would clairify matters. My point is this: if your tribe researched the tech corresponding to Immortals, then that would be your UU for the rest of the game. No one else could build Immortals, but you would no longer be able to research another UU. Of course, many UUs would have prerequisite techs.
Shyrramar
Warlord
@Loco-newf
So why not make it possible for players to choose their UUs after the appropriate tech has been researched? You are only suggesting a complicated system for in effect choosing your UU, right? Now the only difference to actually choosing it is forcing the players to research an additional tech - which is of no consequence as all players would research one anyway. It would only in effect add more complexity, an annoying 10-30 turns of very unproductive research and would give a little lead to scientific civs. And I think that UUs should have absolutely no effect on techrace. With allowing the player to choose their UUs, you would only reward the civ that discovered the tech in question first with the possibility of choosing that UU first - as no other civ could choose it, it would of course be nice to get the first choice. It would be like drafting turns in NHL
I am sorry, but I see absolutely no point in your suggestion
So why not make it possible for players to choose their UUs after the appropriate tech has been researched? You are only suggesting a complicated system for in effect choosing your UU, right? Now the only difference to actually choosing it is forcing the players to research an additional tech - which is of no consequence as all players would research one anyway. It would only in effect add more complexity, an annoying 10-30 turns of very unproductive research and would give a little lead to scientific civs. And I think that UUs should have absolutely no effect on techrace. With allowing the player to choose their UUs, you would only reward the civ that discovered the tech in question first with the possibility of choosing that UU first - as no other civ could choose it, it would of course be nice to get the first choice. It would be like drafting turns in NHL
I am sorry, but I see absolutely no point in your suggestion
Hmmm.... I see your point, Shyrramar.
I guess it would just be a matter of choosing a UU after the Prerequisite tech has been researched, if it hasn't already been chosen by another civ. That way, multiple UUs could be attached to a single tech (eg. Legions and Immortals to Iron Working).
Much simpler... I bow to your wisdom.
I guess it would just be a matter of choosing a UU after the Prerequisite tech has been researched, if it hasn't already been chosen by another civ. That way, multiple UUs could be attached to a single tech (eg. Legions and Immortals to Iron Working).
Much simpler... I bow to your wisdom.
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
This is a system that will avoid messy additional tech tree or possibly boxing UUs out. The first controversial idea is chanign the word Unique. These UUs woudl be unique because they are variants of the regular, not unique only to one culture.
With Warrior code would be a Small Wonder called, Way of the Warrior. It would only be avaliable to be built after your first victory with an elite unit. To be fair to all, it should only be 100 or 200 shields.
Here is what WotW would do. A unit of certain type becomes an elite and wins one combat(would be an indicator so you knew). If this unit survives and makes it to the city where WotW was; it would be sacrificed and you would choose from a list of upgrades for the unit type. The turn after the upgrade is decided, the new UU can be built, where resources are applicable. EAch unit type can only be upgraded once. In effect, someone can have a unique variant of each unit type throughout the game. WotW is cheap enough everyone can have one. Different civs could have the same UU.
Of course what the upgrades were would have to be determined through vigarous balance testing. Also, there would have to be a way to keep militaristic from gaining an edge from this.
And what about non-combat units, I have no idea.
Just a few thoughts waiting to be torn apart.
With Warrior code would be a Small Wonder called, Way of the Warrior. It would only be avaliable to be built after your first victory with an elite unit. To be fair to all, it should only be 100 or 200 shields.
Here is what WotW would do. A unit of certain type becomes an elite and wins one combat(would be an indicator so you knew). If this unit survives and makes it to the city where WotW was; it would be sacrificed and you would choose from a list of upgrades for the unit type. The turn after the upgrade is decided, the new UU can be built, where resources are applicable. EAch unit type can only be upgraded once. In effect, someone can have a unique variant of each unit type throughout the game. WotW is cheap enough everyone can have one. Different civs could have the same UU.
Of course what the upgrades were would have to be determined through vigarous balance testing. Also, there would have to be a way to keep militaristic from gaining an edge from this.
And what about non-combat units, I have no idea.
Just a few thoughts waiting to be torn apart.
Tventano
Chieftain
To have a sort of RPG system could be nice.
But, the traits ensured that you were able to enhance play, to play many more time a different type of game, to be forced to adapt your play style, based on your strong points. In SMAC this was stronger btw than in Civ3.
But, the traits ensured that you were able to enhance play, to play many more time a different type of game, to be forced to adapt your play style, based on your strong points. In SMAC this was stronger btw than in Civ3.
covenant
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2004
- Messages
- 162
It really seems a sythesis of these different ideas would work great. The idea of an eviromental trait and social trait is dead on awesome. But why not keep it simple and the social traits are on the tech tree where as the enviromental is determined by start location.
Starting out there are the classic trait with each civ but that is changable if you want to play one civ simple for the look, or it is determined by start location. In effect you control a general start location or not. The enviromental traits could be sea-faring, agricutural, hunter-gatherer, and I am sure there could be a one or two more.
The social trait would appear on the tech tree maybe with a small wonder requirement. Newton's library would also make you scientific, Bach´s cathedral religious, the great wall militaristic, another artistic (culture), etc. You can only choose one.
Edit: Heck you could do it buy age. The next age had legalistic, nationalistic, humantistic, imperalistic, etc, followed by the final age having utopian, space colonization, ecological, globalistic (is that a word)
Starting out there are the classic trait with each civ but that is changable if you want to play one civ simple for the look, or it is determined by start location. In effect you control a general start location or not. The enviromental traits could be sea-faring, agricutural, hunter-gatherer, and I am sure there could be a one or two more.
The social trait would appear on the tech tree maybe with a small wonder requirement. Newton's library would also make you scientific, Bach´s cathedral religious, the great wall militaristic, another artistic (culture), etc. You can only choose one.
Edit: Heck you could do it buy age. The next age had legalistic, nationalistic, humantistic, imperalistic, etc, followed by the final age having utopian, space colonization, ecological, globalistic (is that a word)
GoodGame
Red, White, & Blue, baby!
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2004
- Messages
- 13,725
I agree. The more civ traits, and little tweaks, the better to make your civ unique and to try different strategy combinations, especially as the strategic situation evolves.
I think even better would be to make all of that attached purely to the tech tree, rather than tribe-based, and even do away with the cultural favoritism/biases, so that the other civ's react to you in a matrix based on what you are versus what they are.
So rather than be a commercial civ, get that feature for an era as soon as you research 'Trade'. And then upon the next era, lose that feature until you Research "Commerce' in the next era... etc..
Or else make the effects additive---so Trade gives you the one commerce city square bonus, and then Commerce increases it to a +2 bonus, etc...
Researching the tech would make the trait automatic, so the only way to avoid it would be to not to research it. E.g. Warrior Code makes you militaristic, but if you need to avoid it for your diplomatic relations with your anti-militaristic neighbor, then you can't research it, nor will you get those archers!
I think even better would be to make all of that attached purely to the tech tree, rather than tribe-based, and even do away with the cultural favoritism/biases, so that the other civ's react to you in a matrix based on what you are versus what they are.
So rather than be a commercial civ, get that feature for an era as soon as you research 'Trade'. And then upon the next era, lose that feature until you Research "Commerce' in the next era... etc..
Or else make the effects additive---so Trade gives you the one commerce city square bonus, and then Commerce increases it to a +2 bonus, etc...
Researching the tech would make the trait automatic, so the only way to avoid it would be to not to research it. E.g. Warrior Code makes you militaristic, but if you need to avoid it for your diplomatic relations with your anti-militaristic neighbor, then you can't research it, nor will you get those archers!
Loppan Torkel
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2004
- Messages
- 4,756
Same post as in 'Roman traits', but in the right place now...
What about giving each civ a limited preset pool of traits based on their real history.
Say Germany could have slots for:
Militaristic OO
Scientific OO
Industrial OO
Religious O
While the Scandinavians could have slots for:
Militaristic OO
Seafaring O
Religious O
Commercial O
Industrial O
...for example, and then you pick one at the time at the entering of a new era.
What about giving each civ a limited preset pool of traits based on their real history.
Say Germany could have slots for:
Militaristic OO
Scientific OO
Industrial OO
Religious O
While the Scandinavians could have slots for:
Militaristic OO
Seafaring O
Religious O
Commercial O
Industrial O
...for example, and then you pick one at the time at the entering of a new era.
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