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Expansion Packs: Not What They Used to Be *Opinion Thread

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by EtaNett, Jul 22, 2011.

  1. cman2010

    cman2010 King

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    thanks to dummys like you we cant get good expansion packs anymore thanks for helping ruin the gaming industry by supporting dlc.

    Moderator Action: Stop the flaming.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  2. starrywisdom

    starrywisdom Warlord

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    DLC is not 'ruining the industry'. How you would come to this conclusion is beyond me. DLC is done quite well by a great majority of companies. Not to mention that if you watch any developer panels you'll see that much content provided by DLC would just plain out not exist, since they wouldn't do a full on expansion pack. Just because x company does DLC wrong does not mean DLC 'is bad'. My local Subway is awful and can't make sub sandwiches worth a hoot - that doesn't make sub sandwiches bad.

    Who said anything about scraping a system - I said the ability should be made more 'generic'. Reworking an implemented system =/= scrapping said system
     
  3. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

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    Perhaps it is dumb, in any case you have to remember that curiosity is a very powerful business tool. I am very curious about new civs and scenarios for CiV, and in order to use them, I have to purchase them. I believe any change is a welcome one for this game, besides beggars can't be choosers. If we can have DLC and not expansions, at least that is something.

    I want you to remember one thing cman2010, it is not dummys like us that ruined the gaming industry, it is the creators of CiV who made the decision to join with steam. This is part of the evolution of gaming. Do not blame the gamer, we are just trying to have fun, buying DLC helps us do just that. There is also a chance expansions may still be forth coming. :)
     
  4. TW_Honorius

    TW_Honorius Warlord

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    dlc is not the issue, the ability to patch games post release is killing the industry. In the past year, games on the PS3 and XBOX360 has hard drives that patches can be downloaded so that games can ship half ass and its easy to patch them. Did the PS2 games come with patches, no. Also, with Steam, updates are automatic so game publishers dont need to make a website and promote it much to tell people there is a patch, the game fixes itself.
     
  5. starrywisdom

    starrywisdom Warlord

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    Again this is incorrect. Games aren't 'shipped half finished' because they know they can patch it down the line. They are shipped half-finished because people still purchase them. Allowing patching has made games stay playable in the multiplayer genre. There are more then enough shovelware titles on the PS2 that were garbage and the lack of patching didn't make it better or worse. The ability to patch has greatly increased a titles ability to survive in the competitive market nowadays. Why does it matter if publishers don't 'need a website and promote it'? Just so you know, every game I've ever played has had a website ANYWAYS with the patch notes on them....
     
  6. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

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    If it's killing the industry, why is the industry doing so well?

    It would help if people know what they're talking about before posting sweeping nonsense like "DLC is killing the industry" or "automatic patching kills the industry". If it wasn't for these things, Civilization V would've been DoA back in September and with it, the Civilization series. The ability to patch games after the release of the game is one of the greatest things gamers could've hoped for, especially for consoles. On another note, Steam patching is easier than going on line and downgrading the giant patch.

    The industry is doing fine and apparently, there's nothing wrong with the DLC or Steam because plenty of users buy/use them.

    Moderator Action: Saying that someone doesn't know what they're talking about and are posting 'sweeping nonsense' isn't very civil. Please improve the tone.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  7. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    That seems to be false logic. They wouldn't have dared to put out the game in the state it was in if they didn't have the Steam system in place. They knew they could get away with it and so they released a half baked game in order to please 2K Games' shareholders. So your scenario of being DOA is inaccurate. They would have insured that the game was up to snuff before releasing it if that was not the case. They never would have dared to pull the stunt they did in the past.

    Steam is good for some things. Indie game producers can get more exposure and produce their games cheaper. On the bad side of things, Steam is basically a crutch that they can lean on. Steam also helps promote laziness from the developers. The game isn't ready yet? Doesn't matter. Let's release it anyway and then patch it up as we go.

    It's also interesting that you mentioned consoles. Console games used to be released with very few bugs out of necessity. That's no longer the case. I wonder why that is? ;)
     
  8. starrywisdom

    starrywisdom Warlord

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    Source? Games have been releasing for decades in horrible shape. People have been buying those games for decades as well. There is no evidence to support that a company won't decide to release a bad product to cash in, regardless of plans to patch or not. This is contrary to obvious 'business sense' but anyone whose been following the industry over the years can see the evolution of the 'video game company'. Until people stop making bad software profitable, companies will continue to release the software in crummy condition.

    Once again, do you have a source of this info? I remember a great many unplayable games on EVERY platform, dating back to the NES days. What games are you talking about exactly? You're also negating the fact that 20 years ago coding wasn't necessarily simpler but it was much more straight forward. Nowadays you are coding for a great many aspects, adding more 'engine features' create more places for bugs to crop up. Although if you have information for the % of bugs per generation or genre that would be greatly appreciated. I'm all for educating myself, but I can't seem to find anything that supports your claim...at all.

    I'm not saying your incorrect, but from my personal experiences I can't draw that conclusion and would really love to see any info behind it. I'm sure someone...somewhere...has given an analysis about it by now!
     
  9. jtb1127

    jtb1127 Deity

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    I don't mean to be a grammar nazi but I can't respond to your arguments if they don't make any sense.

    I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this: but art is far from the most important thing for a video game to have. In the case of civ V, it is nothing more then fluff to attract new audiences and provide support when gameplay is lacking. And the graphics of civ iv are far from "bad". Nevertheless, graphics ares still one of the least important qualities of a video game.
    And how exactly do you use any of the other special units from civ v any different than their normal counterparts? you don't. They are the same thing just with a different name and a few less hit points. Also, a unique unit should not be game changing, even if they were, which they are not.



    Alright, first you accuse me of knowing nothing about history because I said that a cataphracts is a unique unit. What that tells me is that you think a unique unit has to be something we've never heard of before. So how about this. The unique unit is now a giant squid that shoots lasers and can also build great wonders in 0 turns. There is something you have never heard of before, is that a good enough unique unit for you? Also, you have no right to call me ignorant of history based on the context that I gave you. Than you say I am projecting this lack of knowledge upon someone I don't know? Why is the fact I don't know you going to change anything. Should I just not respond to your post because I don't know you? Would that be good? Since it bothers you, you shouldn't even respond. In response to the last point you made of this paragraph, I will just direct you back to my previous responses.


    Same thing. Here you go again using the exact same arguments towards every creative unit I gave you. The only pattern I'm seeing is the way you post-with dull and unintelligent responses used to criticize both the poster and his knowledge about history. Lets aim under the belt, shall we?

    You're actually going unit by unit just stating in your opinion that they are uncreative. Please refer back to the giant squid monster I told you about earlier. See if that is creative enough.

    All of the units I have given you are significantly better than their regular counterparts. This creates and advantage for any player who chooses them in the given era of the unit's use. You are simply ignoring this with each unit I have provided as an incoherent argument. I really do not want to explain how each unit can provide an advantage. Your "creative units" argument is flawed and you know it. You might as well admit that is not worth mentioning again.

    What? You want me to explain to you how an oromo warrior has less personality than a maori? You're wearing the wrong shoes, buddy. You are the one who has argued in favor of DLC by saying it offers more creative units. Thus far you have ignored everything I said about the costs of it and went straight for the "creative units" argument. Tell me how a maori warrior is any more creative then an oromo warrior. As far as I can tell it isn't. Both are historical units used by each country they are from. You have tried to say that all of the other historical units are not creative enough. I'm sorry that history has not provided enough "creative" for you to appreciate it.


    We are not getting more, we are getting less. For the last time, go to the bts info center and see what Beyond the Sword came with. I have already stated the price of the game and how much you get for it. You have done nothing but stated over and over again that the units from the DLC of civ V are more creative and have better graphics as if it were an axiomatic statement. I have tried to explain to you that the graphics are not important but you are oh too fond of them, and I have made it clear that the only thing uncreative about the BTS units is your desire to dislike them. You compare it to a 70s car without air conditioner. You keep ignoring everything else I have said about civ v (the gameplay sucks, the game is slow, the ai are stupid, multiplayer is far form complete, and much more) and everything else the rest of world has said. What makes you think it civ v is the car with the A.C.? If you really want to make the analogy that civ iv is an old 70s car than you are ignoring the fact that the manufacturers of civ v are intentionally leaving out the engine and other important parts and then trying to sell them back to you for rip-off prices.

    Moderator Action: A lot of this post isn't very civil. Please improve the tone of your replies.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  10. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

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    Well said and I completely agree. Developers are lazy. Games come out broken, because they know they can patch over time, and they know they will get a steady stream of income over time from selling DLCs. Steam is their most important tool for making this happen.
     
  11. TW_Honorius

    TW_Honorius Warlord

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    @starrywisdom

    consumers in general are idiots. we will buy a game that graphically looks awesome and plays poor with bugs. Until human ways of thinking change, the gaming industry will continue to thrive.
     
  12. cman2010

    cman2010 King

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    it is ruining the industry how you would come to the conclusion it is not is beyond me. I remember a time when you got new maps ext for free and you could get tons of extra new fetures and gameplay options plus civs for 30 bucks.
     
  13. j-d-s

    j-d-s Chieftain

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    Since i don't get why i should pay for imaginary goods like DLCs and why Patches shouldn't be for free nowadays, i did never bought any DLC or Download-only Game and will continue to do so. In the case of Civ5, it's no great loss, since i'd be able to play DLCs anyways, but Civ5 is completely crap, so i don't have any interest in playing it.

    Another factor is that 2K continues to lie, as they promised before the release to include every MP mode that's included in Civ4.

    I refuse to be the cashcow for these grabbers at Take-Two.
     
  14. Ravellion

    Ravellion Prince

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    Have youa ctually played Civ5 DLC? I doubt it. You use Keshiks just like knights? Slingers just like archers (you can, but that would not be optimal)? Have you tried to use the naval capabilities of berserkers? And even in the normal game, you have camel archers, Longbowmen, Janissaries etc. that all open new strategic possibilities. That is what I call creative. Slapping on a few strength points or promotions has also been done with a few CIv5 UUs, yes, but it was standard with all civ4 UUS except the ballista elephant (but then, that sucked and was often voted worst UU of all)

    And I think it is fun if they do change the game, and open up new strategies. If it's just a little more effective, what new experience does it add? Why should I pay for it? Supporting expansion power creep?


    No, that unit is stupidity, and you know it. I want creativity in implementation, not fantastical creations that do not fit either in the game's atmosphere or the balance of the game.
    You say to me "I guess you've never even heard of cataphracts!". I look at that sentence and analyse it. The only reason why you would post that sentence is because you think cataphracts are something arcane that few people know about. On that, I am sorry to disappoint you, you are mistaken. Because of that judgement call on your part, I then analysed that you were projecting your lack of knowledge about cataphracts on me. If you wish to avoid such comments from me and others in the future, phrase your statements in a less offensive manner. It would have been far better had you posted "Cataphracts were really creative to me! Civ 4 exposed me to the existence of these armored horsemen for the first time!".

    Of course, this isn't a very creative unit type for Byzantium, it is a pretty easy fit, but it doesn't need to be creative either. Some more creative implementation would have been nice though. But then I am reiterating my previous argument.

    Because they aren't creative at all. Just because it is a unique unit, does not automatically make it creative. A unique unit can be creative in two ways:
    1) In idea: Byzantine death ray cannon shooting mega squid. I think we can both agree that is not what we want. We want UUs to match some aspect of the civs history. So that is where we need very little creativity.
    2) In implementation: a creatively implemented unit is a unit that is more than a slightly buffed regular unit.

    So I am paying money for more powerful units only? I might as well open the XML files and do that myself.

    Again, creative in implementation. Creativity with history (what I referred to as "idea" above, or your squid monsters) would be so stupid IMO, that I did not even feel the need to explain that in my previous post. But now I have, and I hope clearly enough.


    Number of Civs doesn't mean anything to me if all they are is two traits, slapped together, and then add a unique unit and a unique building that do the same as the regular one (but then slightly better). This shows no creativity, cookie cutter crap, that I could easily have done myself, but didn't feel the need to, because it adds little to the game. Oh, and because I apparently need to spell it out: no creativity in implementation.

    Civ5's Keshiks, the polynesian ability to embark immediately, the Inca's focus on a hill and mountain based civilization: those are creative, those I would not be able to mod in (and playtest) myself, so those I am willing to pay for.

    Other Civ 4 BTS features such as corporations and espionage were poorly implemented. Admittedly, I kinda liked corporations because you could do really broken things with them, but that does not improve the product a lot.

    What we are left with then, is a few wonders. One of these only worked for the AI (statue of zeus - the AI had serious reduction in war weariness, so building the SoZ didn't hurt them at all). So, BTS: €20 for a few wonders and a few lacklustre civs? Give me Civ5's €3.50 for a truly unique and creative civ any day. And if they release a really lacklustre civ I can even choose not to buy it.

    Also every now and then you posted a few arguments that basically boiled down to civ5 itself being crap/unfinished. I choose to ignore those because we are discussing DLC/Expansions here, not the core game itself.
     
  15. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    A Byzantine Squid Death Ray cannon is no less stupid than Giant Death Robots.;) Particularly so since there isn't even a future era. They stick out like a sore thumb.

    Also, how are Siam's unique unit in any way even creative? It doesn't even require ivory to build, plus the name is idiotic.

    Camel Archers are oh so creative. Nice to see that you require horses to build them. Lol.

    I would say that most of the Unique units are quite uninteresting to be honest. Quite a few of them just have improved stats or do better against certain units. *Yawn*

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As for the DLC, of course they will make them more powerful since they want to sell more units. Sounds pretty much like power creep to me.

    Beserkers really aren't that exciting. 1 extra movement and an amphibious promotion for free? Meh, seen that before with marines.

    Norwegian Ski infantry (Couldn't find a Danish unit I guess) get extra movement in certain terrain. Woo hoo! Always funny to see them in desert hexes. ;)

    Maori Warriors are kind of cool I'll admit. It is pretty thematic when they are, you know, Maori Warriors. Makes zero sense when they are say rifleman. I can picture them doing a war dance and get mowed down by enemy rifleman who strangely enough wouldn't be intimidated in the slightest. ;)

    Slingers aren't really that interesting. Not terrible but nothing special. Likely it's to offset the Inca's UA and UB which are very good.

    Conquistadors do something intriguing in being able to found cities on foreign continents. Kind of cool but usually useless as the map fills up so quickly. Can't have huge maps anymore it seems. Embarkation with defence isn't too exciting either. Not any different than Songhai's UU.

    Tercios are very exciting. Basically just uber pikemen. *Yawn*

    Bowman are somewhat drab. An improved archer. Whoo!

    The Mongolian UUs are kind of cool. Can't argue with that. The Mongols have always been my favourite Civ. They actually portrayed them pretty well. Of course the Mongolian UA is pretty bad unfortunately.

    All in all, they did an average job with the DLC UU wise. Hardly the bargain you think they are.
     
  16. jtb1127

    jtb1127 Deity

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    The only way they are any different is because the mechanics of Civilization V are not the same as civ iv. In case you haven't noticed you cannot bombard cities or units using archers or other siege units. I think that this bombardment is one of the few improvements from civ iv, but that is not what we are arguing about. The uniqueness of these units is simply just switching around the mechanics of bombardment and movement. This makes it no more creative then simply "slapping on" a few strength points or promotions. In response to you first question: I love how you are so quick to make rash assumptions. I have downloaded Polynesia, Inca, and Spain and as far as I can tell they are no more creative than any other civs. And even if they were more creative that still doesn't justify them being overpriced.

    Well, like I have said, the UUs of civ iv are not different than that of civ iv. You have claimed the creativity of them but I have explained that this is non-existent. The UUs of civ iv ( no matter how uncreative you claim them to be) do offer that civ a unique advantage in the given era. There are some that are useless but many are not. The immortals of Persia alow for great ancient era conquests. The Indiamans of the Netherlands allow colonization years before other civs can catch up. I would not call these "game changing" but rather "era changing" and that is the way they should be.

    No, you want an ahistorical unit that can be deemed as creative. There you got it. You won't except the unique units of the Byzantines as creative on the grounds that "too many people have heard of them". So here is your solution: something that no one has ever heard of that can also be called creative.

    I really enjoy how you change my quote around and add extra punctuation as to give the effect that I said it in a rude manner, when I was simply stating in a sarcastic manner that that particular unit will probably not fly with you because you probably have already heard of it. Then you go ahead and jump the gun calling me out on my knowledge of history?:confused:
    Here we go with the phrasing again. The way you just worded that obviously is methodical to say that I'm some sort of yellow bellow. Even if I hadn't heard of cataphracts before civ iv, I definitely would not admit it in your presence.
    Any way, to me, this is exactly what you want out of a Civ V UU. To had never heard of it to the point that it is probably not even an actual historical unit. For example: The Inca Slinger. Yes there are accounts of its usage by some Europeans, but I feel that it is really sort of silly. Its usage is far more notable by other civilizations like the Vikings, so this leads me to believe that they were only placed in the game for the sake of creativity. You would probably just deem it uncreative like you have done with the cataphract had they placed a real historical unit like the Quecha from civ iv.

    Again, you want a unit that you have never heard of before. And again, implementation could not be done better based on the mechanics of civ iv. This is not something that can be used to attack Beyond the Sword, but civ iv itself. I'm not here to defend the mechanics of civ iv, but to defend the quality of its expansions and to attack civ v's DLC.

     
  17. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    Yeah I'm not a fan of it tbh. When Blizzard started doing stuff like that - making mounts and stuff in WoW for sale and making multiple expansions per game (where at one time they said they would only make one expansion per game) - they at least made something of high quality and was priced appropriately.

    With Firaxis and Civ5 - especially seeing that thread with a heck of a lot of the artwork taken from stock photos - the quality doesn't match the price imo. And because quality doesn't match the price, I question their motives for doing it this way.

    There are some benefits though for doing it this way - being able to pay for what you want and not pay more for stuff you dont want - but having the extra content overpriced to begin with ruins that ideal imo.
     
  18. Ravellion

    Ravellion Prince

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    I apologise for blowing the cataphract comment up larger than was necessary, but it came across to me as needlessly confrontational and insulting. I now understand that you really did not understand my point and were not trying to insult me or project anything on me.

    Nevertheless, I keep being painted as someone who would like ahistoric insane units as UU, despite the fact that I used four paragraphs to explain that that is something I explicitly do not want. I don't mind conversing with someone who has a different opinion than me, but I refuse to converse further with someone who pins an opinion on me that I don't have. I am out of this thread. There are other points where I still don't agree with you, but we will never get anywhere discussing this.
     
  19. Ahovking

    Ahovking Cyber Nations

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  20. Becomedeath

    Becomedeath The Destroyer

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