DaDoo
Prince
My experience with expansionist civ are just about like how it is with TNO. But I always eventually fall behind I'm sure due to my fatally flawed way of playing. ahhh oh well.
Expansionist - I've seen the light
- Thread starter TheNiceOne
- Start date
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
Sumthinelse has described the odds of what you will get from huts in other threads. Basically it is partially dependent on the difficulty level you are playing. On deity you will get a ton of empty huts. On chieftain you will get alot of settlers (if you currently have fewer cities than the average AI, and you don't have any other settlers currently being built or running around anywhere), and alot of techs.
When I got out of the ancient era before 2500 B.C. (I don't remember the exact date, but it was somewhere between 2500-2700 B.C.) I was playing Regent Level, huge pangea map with 8 AI. 3950 B.C. I got a settler from a hut, immediately built that second city. I was playing the Americans, so I quickly mined every bonus grassland available. The two cities produced nothing but scouts until they could get a settler complete right when they reach size 3. A size 2 city working two bonus grassland squares can build a scout every 2 turns. I kept building scouts and settlers until I had about 20! scouts running around, then switched to military units. With 20 scouts running around on a huge pangea map you will grab ALOT of goody huts. When I met a civ that did happen to have a tech I did not have yet, I would buy or trade for it (Alphabet is one you usually won't get right away because it is an expensive tech), so that the next tech I get from a hut would be an even more advanced tech, and I would get out of the ancient era just a little faster. I think I traded for 2 techs, but the rest I got from goody huts (including monarchy and Republic).
Goody huts will give you the techs you are NOT researching, so select which tech you want to 'research' accordingly. I had science at 0%, but selected Alphabet to 'research'. (And after I traded for Alphabet, I 'researched' Writing). By selecting them, then after 7-8 techs from huts, you get to Monarchy and can get out of despot extremely early in the game (possibly before 3000 B.C.).
Mapmaking and Literature are one of the last ones you get from a hut. So making a strategy of getting these from a hut is a very risky strategy, as there may not be enough huts around. To try and get mapmaking and literature earlier, the best you can really do is 'research' ceremonial burial so you block off 4 possible other techs. Whereas by 'researching' Alphabet, you block off a whole bunch of techs (like 7 or 8 of them) and the huts go right down the ceremonial line to Monarchy.
Also, when you get towards the end of the ancient tech tree and you think there are more huts out there, you should be researching a required tech like construction or currency, so the huts will give you republic and monarchy (if you don't already have that one yet). If you decide to research Republic, then the hut will give you the required tech, you'll get out of the ancient era and can no longer get any techs (republic). Unless you don't need republic and just want to hurry up and get to fuedalism.
On a huge pangea map I set science to 0% since the huts will give me nearly every tech (if not all of them), and I don't want to invest money into research to end up getting the tech for free. On smaller maps I would probably recommend researching, though. If you dont' think you'll get more than 7 or 8 techs from huts, then you can research Alphabet or Writing so the free techs you do get would put you even farther ahead. And it wouldn't be likely that you get all the techs you aren't researching, then being forced to get the tech you already invested so much money in for free.
When I got out of the ancient era before 2500 B.C. (I don't remember the exact date, but it was somewhere between 2500-2700 B.C.) I was playing Regent Level, huge pangea map with 8 AI. 3950 B.C. I got a settler from a hut, immediately built that second city. I was playing the Americans, so I quickly mined every bonus grassland available. The two cities produced nothing but scouts until they could get a settler complete right when they reach size 3. A size 2 city working two bonus grassland squares can build a scout every 2 turns. I kept building scouts and settlers until I had about 20! scouts running around, then switched to military units. With 20 scouts running around on a huge pangea map you will grab ALOT of goody huts. When I met a civ that did happen to have a tech I did not have yet, I would buy or trade for it (Alphabet is one you usually won't get right away because it is an expensive tech), so that the next tech I get from a hut would be an even more advanced tech, and I would get out of the ancient era just a little faster. I think I traded for 2 techs, but the rest I got from goody huts (including monarchy and Republic).
Goody huts will give you the techs you are NOT researching, so select which tech you want to 'research' accordingly. I had science at 0%, but selected Alphabet to 'research'. (And after I traded for Alphabet, I 'researched' Writing). By selecting them, then after 7-8 techs from huts, you get to Monarchy and can get out of despot extremely early in the game (possibly before 3000 B.C.).
Mapmaking and Literature are one of the last ones you get from a hut. So making a strategy of getting these from a hut is a very risky strategy, as there may not be enough huts around. To try and get mapmaking and literature earlier, the best you can really do is 'research' ceremonial burial so you block off 4 possible other techs. Whereas by 'researching' Alphabet, you block off a whole bunch of techs (like 7 or 8 of them) and the huts go right down the ceremonial line to Monarchy.
Also, when you get towards the end of the ancient tech tree and you think there are more huts out there, you should be researching a required tech like construction or currency, so the huts will give you republic and monarchy (if you don't already have that one yet). If you decide to research Republic, then the hut will give you the required tech, you'll get out of the ancient era and can no longer get any techs (republic). Unless you don't need republic and just want to hurry up and get to fuedalism.
On a huge pangea map I set science to 0% since the huts will give me nearly every tech (if not all of them), and I don't want to invest money into research to end up getting the tech for free. On smaller maps I would probably recommend researching, though. If you dont' think you'll get more than 7 or 8 techs from huts, then you can research Alphabet or Writing so the free techs you do get would put you even farther ahead. And it wouldn't be likely that you get all the techs you aren't researching, then being forced to get the tech you already invested so much money in for free.
SirJethro
Paterfamilias
IMHO, goody huts should be turned off in multiplayer, or at least played under the probabilities of Diety or one of the top difficulty levels.
Actually, that is a good point. It is easy to forget that difficulty level matters even without AI players....because it affects goody huts, barbarians, etc.
Actually, that is a good point. It is easy to forget that difficulty level matters even without AI players....because it affects goody huts, barbarians, etc.
Yzman
Deity
Are you trying to totally kill the expantionist trait?
NO ONE would ever be them if that was the case becuase they would have no advantage.
If you are gonna take away the Goody huts, you should take away the Traits.
I just thought of one thing.
Expansionists not only get good things from Goody Huts. You can be sure that your opponents (if not expansionists themselves), will have a hard time getting anything good. And if they do get something bad, it can hurt real bad
I just thought of one thing.
Expansionists not only get good things from Goody Huts. You can be sure that your opponents (if not expansionists themselves), will have a hard time getting anything good. And if they do get something bad, it can hurt real bad
TheNiceOne
Emperor
I found more than 20 goody huts. I noticed that the AI had avoided goody huts close to their cities, so most of the goody huts became mine.
I didn't count the exact number, but I think I found 3-4 maps and 2-3 deserted goody huts. Together with the others it should be between 25 and 30 huts popped by me! This was my first expansionist game on a huge map (although this is only one of the two continents) so I'm not sure if this is extremely many.
And no, I didn't reload once.
Shabbaman
rebuffing the rebels
It's pretty stupid that AI does that even when they're expansionist. Very, very, very [enter firaxis bashing here]. Can't they fix that?
BTW, I didn't know about the research/goody hut combination. Thanks. I will try it next time.
TheNiceOne
Emperor
Shabbaman, my experience is that the AI expansionists are pretty good at popping the huts. In this game however, there were only one other expansionist civ on the continent, and the other didn't seem to pop huts at all.
So I get quite disappointed when I see that my neighbours are expansionists, since that means much less goody huts for me.
So I get quite disappointed when I see that my neighbours are expansionists, since that means much less goody huts for me.
Shabbaman
rebuffing the rebels
Yes, you're right TNO. But I was referring to a. your own statement
and b. some recent SOTD or GOTM (I don't recall) which showed a goody hut next to the zulu capital (zulu=expansionist) in medieval times. Which is strange. I've seen it myself. It's wrong and it should be fixed.
sumthinelse
civ investigator
If you play on a huge map with panageia, 60% water (max land), there should be about 80 goody huts total.
On 1.21f, playing expansionist/deity, I was getting 20-25% techs from goody huts on deity.
Playing deity/expansionist on 1.29f, I tried a couple of huge maps on. I got 38 techs out of 138 goody huts (about 30%) so far. That suggests to me that it is unlikely that the probability of a tech is as low as 20%, but if the probability is 25% I should get 38 or more techs 27% of the time, so the probability of a tech on deity/expansionist could be about 25% but might be higher.
Assume for the moment that the probability of getting a tech for deity/expansionist is 25% (it might be higher). What is the chance of getting all the ancient techs before you run out of goody huts?
To do that, you would research one of the required techs like construction when you get close to discovering all the ancient techs, because a hut will always give you a tech you are not researching unless the tech you are researching is the last one in the ancient era. On the other hand, if you already have the republic and only construction and monarchy remain, you may want to get construction from a goody hut and go on to the middle ages.
OK, panageia. 60% water, deity/expansionist. If your continent has 60 goody huts (total huts on other continents would be about 20 in this case) and the AI does not open any goody huts you have a good chance of getting all or almost all of the ancient techs from goody huts, but I would guess that the AI does open some goody huts. If you specify your AI opponents and pick all non-expansionists, you will get the lion's share of those huts. Let's say you get 45 huts. You would get maybe 10-12 techs. If the probability of getting a tech is 30%, you get more.
Is it worth it to play expansionist on deity, even on a huge map?
Even if you do get all or almost all the ancient techs, and all AI civs are non-expansionist, they get to research a tech faster after you discover it in a goody hut, plus they already research techs 167% faster than you do, and they (*ahem*) practically give techs away to each other.
It's not clear to me yet whether it's worth it. Maybe the AI-to-AI trade rate should be for everything except techs.
On 1.21f, playing expansionist/deity, I was getting 20-25% techs from goody huts on deity.
Playing deity/expansionist on 1.29f, I tried a couple of huge maps on. I got 38 techs out of 138 goody huts (about 30%) so far. That suggests to me that it is unlikely that the probability of a tech is as low as 20%, but if the probability is 25% I should get 38 or more techs 27% of the time, so the probability of a tech on deity/expansionist could be about 25% but might be higher.
Assume for the moment that the probability of getting a tech for deity/expansionist is 25% (it might be higher). What is the chance of getting all the ancient techs before you run out of goody huts?
To do that, you would research one of the required techs like construction when you get close to discovering all the ancient techs, because a hut will always give you a tech you are not researching unless the tech you are researching is the last one in the ancient era. On the other hand, if you already have the republic and only construction and monarchy remain, you may want to get construction from a goody hut and go on to the middle ages.
OK, panageia. 60% water, deity/expansionist. If your continent has 60 goody huts (total huts on other continents would be about 20 in this case) and the AI does not open any goody huts you have a good chance of getting all or almost all of the ancient techs from goody huts, but I would guess that the AI does open some goody huts. If you specify your AI opponents and pick all non-expansionists, you will get the lion's share of those huts. Let's say you get 45 huts. You would get maybe 10-12 techs. If the probability of getting a tech is 30%, you get more.
Is it worth it to play expansionist on deity, even on a huge map?
Even if you do get all or almost all the ancient techs, and all AI civs are non-expansionist, they get to research a tech faster after you discover it in a goody hut, plus they already research techs 167% faster than you do, and they (*ahem*) practically give techs away to each other.
It's not clear to me yet whether it's worth it. Maybe the AI-to-AI trade rate should be for everything except techs.
Free Enterprise
The return stroke.
I would very much like to know the odds of getting a settler from a goodie hut. If anyone knows the ratio/odds of getting what that would be good. I think I saw it somewhere on this website once.
Some things I think determine results(not excatly certain they are factual though):
It seemed like 25% barbarians(yikes) if non expansionist. Higher difficulties seem to increase this though, thus decrease odds of better things happening.
75% the other results(unless certain conditions are met)
You can't get settlers if you already have one out on the map.(Almost certain of this one)
You can't get barbarians if hut is with city's normal useable panels(this occurs from cultural expansion into hut)
You cannot get medival, industrial, or modern age techs. Just ancient.
I think gold can only be gotten if some type of bonus/luxury resources is in a city radius of the hut.
Military units... I think something about how many units you have effects this.
Map knowledege I guess it doesn't happen if you can see all of the map in the area already.
I generally get techs a lot, not too many military units, an occasional settler. Gold is rare, which is a good thing.(techs are much better)
Expansionist certainly gets better on harder difficulties. Would be interesting too see it on an all player game on Emperor or harder in PTW.......
Some things I think determine results(not excatly certain they are factual though):
It seemed like 25% barbarians(yikes) if non expansionist. Higher difficulties seem to increase this though, thus decrease odds of better things happening.
75% the other results(unless certain conditions are met)
You can't get settlers if you already have one out on the map.(Almost certain of this one)
You can't get barbarians if hut is with city's normal useable panels(this occurs from cultural expansion into hut)
You cannot get medival, industrial, or modern age techs. Just ancient.
I think gold can only be gotten if some type of bonus/luxury resources is in a city radius of the hut.
Military units... I think something about how many units you have effects this.
Map knowledege I guess it doesn't happen if you can see all of the map in the area already.
I generally get techs a lot, not too many military units, an occasional settler. Gold is rare, which is a good thing.(techs are much better)
Expansionist certainly gets better on harder difficulties. Would be interesting too see it on an all player game on Emperor or harder in PTW.......
sumthinelse
civ investigator
On 1.21f I did some tests. The probability of a settler depends on several factors: 1) difficulty, 2) expansionist/non-exp., 3) if you discover all the required ancient techs you will not get techs from huts any more, and that makes all the other results more likely, 4) if you already have a settler or are producing one you won't get one, and finally 5) if you have more cities than the average number of cities per civ (not clear how they round this off) you can't get a settler. All of the following results were in the ancient era and I had less than the max number of cities. On 1.21f, deity, non-expansionist got 6% settlers and expansionists got 10%. On monarch, non-exp. got 9% settlers and expansionist 14%. On chieftan, non-exp. got 15% settlers and exp. got 16%.
On deity the non-expansionists got 46% barbs (and you know how tough they are on deity)!
These are just test results, and of course these do not correspond to exact probabilities, but I think they give you some idea of what the odds are, or rather were, on 1.21f.
It's tedious to test like this because every time you pop a settler you have to disband it because owning a settler changes all the probabilities.
Expansionist gets better on higher levels? In a way, compared to non-expansionist. But Is a 25% probability of getting techs (deity/expansionist) good enough to overcome the AI's 167% cost advantage in growth, shields, and research plus the #@!&^ AI-to-AI trade rate?
No, there have been times when I did get the entire area, but missed this one square where a hut was found, I popped it, and it gave me a map, of which I already knew.
sumthinelse
civ investigator
If you used the "quote" button instead of the "reply" button we might understand what you were responding to....
I agree. In my current game I have seen about three huts right next to the German cities, and none of them were popped by any of the five or so German units wandering around the place. It's almost like they are afraid of the goody huts. So I quickly sent a couple of my units to take care of the huts for them.
sumthinelse
civ investigator
Originally posted by willj
I agree. In my current game I have seen about three huts right next to the German cities, and none of them were popped by any of the five or so German units wandering around the place. It's almost like they are afraid of the goody huts. So I quickly sent a couple of my units to take care of the huts for them.
Zulus should explore the goody huts, but if your game is deity level it's not clear whether it's a good idea for the germans (non-expansionist). On deity non-expansionists have only about 5% chance of tech, settler, gold, map, warrior (or horseman) and they have about a 45% chance of barbs. That would be good for modern armor because it would be assured of getting promoted twice if the hut had 3 barbs. It depends on how strong their units are. I wouldn't reccomend it for spearman or horseman.
TheNiceOne
Emperor
I'm not playing on deity (monarch suits me quite fine for the moment), so this is only speculations:
Of course, it's not enough to overcome the AI advantages on deity, but it should narrow the gap a bit, maybe enough for you to get some important techs for free and use those to trade for other important techs. It may make it much easier to get iron working fast, for an early war.
And then, remember that techs aren't the only reason for huts: Expansionist almost doubles the chance of getting a settler (aside from the fact that you maybe wouldn't dare to pop the hut at all on deity if non-expansionist), and getting a free settler early on in deity should be a massive advantage. A few free warriors might help to save the day as well.
Shabbaman
rebuffing the rebels
Originally posted by willj
I agree. In my current game I have seen about three huts right next to the German cities, and none of them were popped by any of the five or so German units wandering around the place. It's almost like they are afraid of the goody huts. So I quickly sent a couple of my units to take care of the huts for them.
Since zulus are expansionist (thank you sumthinelse) they should pop the hut since they won't get barbarians (because they're expansionist...
) Since the jerries aren't expansionists but scientific and militaristic, it makes sense that they don't pop the hut as long as they don't have a proper defence.In that way, expansionist is better on higher levels, because barbarians are stronger on higher levels. That means, that you don't want to get barbarians out of your goody huts (well, you never want them actually) because the chance of survival of your warrior popping the hut will decrease dramatically on higher levels.
(btw, I searched my ass of for that screenshot I mentioned earlier. Does anybody know where it is (don't come to me with answers like: 'in GD' you f*
)
sumthinelse
civ investigator
I was thinking the same thing, but Sulla, I, and others have recommended giant continents for expansionist. On such a continent, getting a settler that takes 50 turns to get close enough to a your palace to do any good may not help much, at least in the short term. Plus settlers may run into barbs on the way home. Forbidden palace may help, but often when I already have 2 palaces they are not too far apart (for example when I conquer cities from a neighbor AI). It seems that the game design here (corruption, waste, distance from palace) does not work very well with the expansionist trait at least in some cases.
I agree with you that iron working is very useful. The expansionist trait has some clear advantages, but other supposed advantages are more problematic....
Reboot
Privateer
Expansionist is highly dependent on the map. In fact, I'll argue that it's already pretty weakened if you start in an area surrounded by hills and forrests, because the Scout would be moving like a warrior.
Wasn't there a post (with screenshot) with an expansionist civ and a very very early republic? That's probably how far the expansionist trait can get you at ideal conditions...
Wasn't there a post (with screenshot) with an expansionist civ and a very very early republic? That's probably how far the expansionist trait can get you at ideal conditions...
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