Experience vs Inexperience

[greenie]

Just remember guys, as far as whether people are qualified to give advice in this forum, remember this:

Judge a person by the advice s/he gives, not by the number of posts!

Newbies often have the nice original insights of the game lost on the universal strategy of the "experts"!

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- Greenie

" Let us take by
cunning what we would
take by force"

 

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by EyesOfNight:
A newbie wants to know why experts won't teach him anything and instead of getting a flood of experts offering him advice he gets a flood of newbies posing as experts offering him advice. I find that amusing.

Like everything else, it's all relative.

Yes, SP is much diffferent then MP.

Kitten of Chaos, terrain makes a great difference in defense. A great
difference.

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It's In The Way That You Use It
Tuatha De Danann Tribe
ICQ 51553293



[This message has been edited by SlowwHand (edited July 17, 2001).]

 

[Flatlander Fox]

Komoda, next time you see me online, hit me up for a game. I am a little too nice to other players, but stake out my turf early in the game and then defend it rabidly. I'll give you a run for your money, and won't even talk trash during the game

.

I see too many people who don't really even play Civ, but play Age of Empires style games. Which is rush attack folks and never let up until they are completly destroyed. Then move on to the next Civ... There are no other options or facets in their game. These are the same people who WILL quit in the game quite quickly if they are either:

On an Island with no mapmaking
Discovered First and held in check


War is an inevitable part of the game. But warmongers are easy to spot, and easier to deal with in the long run...

Just don't play with them again.

You may get beat once by them, and have to listen to their rants about how you "suck" and are a "newbie". But at least you don't have to play against them anymore...

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I'm so tired of being tired... Sure as night will follow day... Most things I worry about, never happen anyway...

 

[starlifter]

That seems like both a good analysis and good advice for MP, Flatlander Fox.

Also,

... too many people who don't really even play Civ, but play Age of Empires style games.

Yes, that seems like a mistake to play Civ II in an AoE style, given that Civ II is turn-based and has a very different game flow than AoE.

by greenie:

Judge a person by the advice s/he gives, not by the number of posts!

Another piece of sage advice! In fact, some things that work well for one person may not even work well for another, depending on style, patience, temperment, etc.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Sloww I agree that terrain makes a vast difference...but the encounter he suggests is poppycock as the hitpoints of the ironclad or frigate (hopefully vetted on soft targets) will win -admitted a frigate will be badly damaged...but an ironclad could go again no probs.

It was just a spurious piece of help to give people...

 

[jiml_63]

Komoda,
I have had the opportunity to play with you on several occassions. I have several suggestions. First, do not host a game if you are going to run at the first sign of contact with other civilizations. Next, look for diplomacy games in which building your empire is more heralded than than smashing your opponents (the are advertised in the MP forum). Next, find a partner to team with who can provide you with military protection while you provide the science and revenue, and beat the competition in the civil manner you are looking for. Finally, go to the war academy and learn how to defend yourself.

 

[EyesOfNight]

Oh my god, the computer geeks are beginning to come out of the walls. I can't take this much longer.

 

[starlifter]

LOL, settle down, EoN

.

The math of a fortified pikeman on a forest is:

2 - Base Defense
1 - Fortification Bonus (50 %)
1 - Forest Bonus (50%)
--
4

Ironclad: Attack = 4

Though it appears the ironclad has a 50-50 shot (assuming it is 100% healthy), in fact the odds favor the Ironclad because it has 30 hit points, vs. the pikeman's 10.

So it is possible, but not probably, the pikeman will defeat the ironclad.

If the pikeman is a veteran, the pikeman's odds are still less than 50-50, even though he defends with 5 and the ironclad attacks with 4.

If the ironclad is Veteran, the chance is remote that the pikeman will survive... but the ironclad will take some damage and be "slowed" in future movement and/or number of attacks in a turn... so the death of the pikeman may not be in vain, esp. since a pikeman costs only 20 shields.

A long time ago, I faced AIs that had ironclads attacking my cities for about 12 turns before I stole gunpowder. The best I could manage against the ironclad onslaught was rapid replacement of my pikemen. It was fortunate for me I was not facing a human player who could have taken advantage of a coordinated assault... 3 of my cites were empty after almost every ironclad bombardment.

Conclusion: Unless your city is on a hill (or river/forest or mountain), it will likely lose to a healthy ironclad. So just use (vet) musketeers to defend!

 

[HIEROPHANT]

if you fall behind in tech pikemen is the only option until i steal gunpoweder though i never lost city pikemen vs ironclad because if you only have pikemen better have a lot and for each one destroyed i replace with another and somtimes i will add 2 more to the amount of defesne mathamactly is cost the attacking group with ironclads more if on a forest or hill in sheild value. one city had a lot of pikemen this one person tried 3 ironclads and after that. the person was thiking i had no men left suprise i still have plenty of defesne against the crusaders landing and attacking. that really cost that person in sheilds. by the way these ironclads were verterns and that town had a enough men to hold its own. without help of other towns.

[This message has been edited by HIEROPHANT (edited July 18, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by HIEROPHANT (edited July 18, 2001).]

 

[Morgasshk]

What people have stated in the above would be the main thing I'd worry about when playing MP... It would really **** me to give it a go and be slaughtered and not be given any tips - I mean helpful tips, not downgrading ones! - on how to survive longer and build up defence and attack strength quicker in the next game. I have only played on SP and I count myself as pretty damn good, I've been playing for 7 years and hadn't found anyone better than me in all that time - albeit I'd only seen probably 10 other saved games before discovering this site, more than likely I would go into a MP game and be creamed... I'd like to think that I would survive - But That would probably be about it... I usually have good defence and city placement...
Veteran players need to stress the major changes people need to make when transferring from SP to MP and the better range of techniques to use...
Whenever I play on a level higher than prince on SP I always had trouble trying to take out another civ without being greatly more advanced - ie: at least cavalry taking on dragoons or crusaders... It would take me at least 10 standard units (non-vets) to take a size 8 city with 2 units in it... I have never known why this was so... But, through reading posts on this site I used a tactic I had read about regarding sending in spies to bribe cities to revolt and thus gaining the city intact with units and production - ****ING BRILLIANT!!!!
I have employed this in my most recent game and to much effect!
Thanks to the people that do add in little tips and examples, it helps out heaps and is good for us that mistakenly thought WE could educate people on how to play the game!
And also, another note, I really like reading about peoples examples of civvy... ie, size, forces, scenarios, really helps put things into context... Ok, I think I should do some work now.... I'm bludging a little...

Morgasshk.

 

[starlifter]

I have only played on SP and I count myself as pretty damn good, I've been playing for 7 years and hadn't found anyone better than me in all that time -

I would imagine that most of us are legends in our own minds in SP. To be fair to the MP guys, despite the various shortcomings of Civ II MP, the MP probably is the "best" way to sort out the best players relative to each other. The SP, however, is still the "true" way Civ II was meant in it's purest form.

The AI has a way of convincing most SP players that they are the "best", and I suppose that is part of the reason Civ II is still so popular (and considered the best computer game of all time by many sources). I mean, how many people would like a game in which they were always pummeled and make to feel like a fool, LOL? So yes, I (the "true" greatest SP player, hehe...) will admit having "taught" those dastardly AI civs lessons they won't soon forget (well, until I close Civ II, anyway

).

 

[duke o' york]

Starlifter wrote:

A long time ago, I faced AIs that had ironclads attacking my cities for about 12 turns before I stole gunpowder. The best I could manage against the ironclad onslaught was rapid replacement of my pikemen. It was fortunate for me I was not facing a human player who could have taken advantage of a coordinated assault... 3 of my cites were empty after almost every ironclad bombardment.

What was the point of rushbuying loads of pikemen when the AI was attacking with ironclads? They couldn't actually take your cities with ironclads so you didn't have to have defensive units until they turned up with some ground troops. Your cities could quite safely ignore the coastal bombardment until troops capable of taking your cities arrived, and I assume that since this was a long time before the arrival of marines, the troops would have to land outside the city first. You must have wasted loads of money and pikemen defending like this.

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in vino veritas

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

I usually just pull the troops out if they will get killed also. Rarely does the computer follow up an ironclad barrage with an assault landing. They will show up eventually, but only if the city remains empty that whole time.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

In my GOTM which i did in under 4 hours due to having to leave the country (hehe in Spain now with the loot) for fieldmapping I used my frigate strat that I had employed in my last 3 multiplayer games. In my GOTM I lost 4 frigates b4 the widespread inception of gunpowder (then losses increased and frigates were replaced by ironclads on a part exchange) I had thus used some 26 frigates on my opponents and conquered b4 gunpowder arised all the coastal cities in the world (exception of one or two celt cities...too far away).

The frigate strat is simple in its use of the fact that frigates can carry units and blast the phalanx and pikeman opposition away to allow an easy landing.

The concept is that you can research to magnetism b4 your enemies can hit gunpowder.

The thing works in practice based on another of the strategies that works which I call ´The empire vs a city´...as used by most people in some form.

This is where you amass a strike force of frigates that require only on attack by each frigate on the city to win the battle. Now based on estimates of the defenders strength you can direct almost always a large enough force.

Wonders that help...magellans (a near must, and something I missed in my GOTM!)

The frigates should hopefully be veteran trained by soft targets (barbarians or enemy cities on plains, grasslands etc) and when called to a serious war they WILL win even vs the hierophant pikemen. Simply I have this so tried and tested that I know I am right about the ironclads...if my frigates can do the business then the ironclads will be fine too!

In my game vs my brother my frigates mean I could take his empire...vs Richard my frigates cleared cities on forest of troops and meant any other city fell easily! He had vast numbers of pikemen (he had leonardoes and was planning to best benefit when he discovered gunpowder...something that combined with him building the statue of liberty I could not allow...I provoked attack by having diplomats land and wander around till attacked...when we warred 9 frigates employed beat most his coastal cities (well positioned in the main) and took out the mongols empire too.)


Quite simply there is no groundings in practice for ironclads vs pikemen being anything other than a joke. Experience tells me what happens and the pikeman will lose and there is no necessity for the frigate to attack more than once if the application of force vs one city is appropriate...4 frigates per city is a good idea...maybe more if the opponent has reasons for alot more to be there (e.g got leonardoes and is wanting to cash in!).

 

[starlifter]

posted July 18, 2001 05:38 AM


What was the point of rushbuying loads of pikemen when the AI was attacking with ironclads? They couldn't actually take your cities with ironclads so you didn't have to have defensive units until they turned up with some ground troops. Your cities could quite safely ignore the coastal bombardment until troops capable of taking your cities arrived, and I assume that since this was a long time before the arrival of marines, the troops would have to land outside the city first. You must have wasted loads of money and pikemen defending like this.

The key was my preface, which was that it was a long time ago. One of my first games, and I did not realize at the time the AI was so dumb. I expected an invasion fleet anytime, and spent some gold to keep those pikemen coming.

BTW, if a city is empty, even a settler can just move in an capture the city directly from a ship. It does NOT have to be a marine; marines are special because they can attack an occupied city from a ship... and any military ground unit can actually capture the city.

So the galleons of invaders never materialized, but if they had, I was trying to be ready. When I got gunpowder, that was the end of the attacking ironclads, though I did lose a couple musketeers, too.

Nowadays, I ensure that I get gunpowder at least simultaneously with the AI, and that pretty much solves the Ironclads vs. Pikeman issue for me.

 

[starlifter]

The frigate strat is simple in its use of the fact that frigates can carry units and blast the phalanx and pikeman opposition away to allow an easy landing.

Properly done in the right game and timeframe, the "Frigate Strategy" can devastate an opponent's pre-gunpowder coastal cities, esp. if you have Sun Tzu's and Magellans!

In most games I play, however, the AI usually starts up the Steam Engine route, while I'm fininshing the Religious/Democracy/Sanitation part of the tree (happiness is job#1 for me in Deity). I then steal, trade, or get via GL the Steam Engine and convert my pre-building "ironclads' (actually, caravans before Steam Engine) into atual Ironclads, then they go forth and lay waste to the enemy. If I don't have the GL, I'll go right for Electricity (and sometimes, like in GOTM 6, I go for electricity and kill my own GL

).

But for those who know the right way to implement the Frigate Strategy, it is possible to bag a good number of enemy cities in the Frigate's short useful lifespan.

 

[duke o' york]

For any newbies out there (I'm sure that most of the fanatics will already know), the best thing about coastal bombardments is that the city does not decrease in population like it does if you attack by land. This means that although the enemy city may have loads of defenders, you won't end up taking a rubbishy size 1 or 2 city when your troops march in. A very useful tactic.

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in vino veritas

 

[HIEROPHANT]

in this deity game i am playing right now i doubt if the computer will get firgate by the time i win and also the greatlibarary was no good for me because i have all the advances the computer normally goes for. in an sp game it is rare on diety if the computer get past gunpowder let alone get gunpowder. this one is a much better than my last game although i won anyway. all i have to do is have a warrior and a firgate to take a city.

 

[starlifter]

posted July 19, 2001 12:40 PM by HEIROPHANT:
in this deity game i am playing right now i doubt if the computer will get firgate by the time i win ...

The AI must really be quaking in its boots when it awakens in a new game and realizes that it's not going to be facing a normal human, but Super-HEIROPHANT!

BTW, have you ever had all the AIs resign simultaneoulsy in 3950, after they talk it over and realize they're all destined for a quick trip to binary heaven? I have to pay my AI civs to stay in the game so I can butcher them... just wondering if you had to do this too, LOL ...

 

[HIEROPHANT]

other way around you see the AI pays me for peace but as soon as it quit paying war! i manage to get my game to work in sp for civ in this one game that is my greatest that i continue it is 920ad deity 85 cities got to 255 fast as possable also the computer in is even worst off i dont think it can even reach navagation. i took the pryamid other wonders from vikings. i have the ai in the coner they will soon meet their doom.

[This message has been edited by HIEROPHANT (edited July 20, 2001).]