Exploration Continued Expanded (Obsolete)

[shader301202]

JFD, have You already added Colonies?

 

[JFD]

No, not yet. I'll be looking at content updates after my trimester ends in November.

 

[Qwynn]

Heh, well.

Installed the hotfix (and cleared my cache/moduserdata).

I'm now encountering a consistent CTD when ending my first time.

Found a city, choose production, select research, end my turn and... a CTD.

Attached the new logs.

=<

Sorry for all the trouble.

 

[JFD]

You don't appear to have logging enabled. And only Gazebo can read Minidump files, as he's the only one with the source code of his DLL (well, maybe whoward, too).

 

[Qwynn]

Terribly sorry!

It completely slipped my mind that I had reset the entire MyDocs Civ5 folder, so it wasn't enabled in the new config!

Here's the logs (sans minidump then).

 

[JFD]

I'm afraid that tells me nothing, and I ran a test with the CBP and ExCE, and ran through the first turn fine (although I haven't updated to the CBP). Anyone else have any problem? Are you using many other mods, Qwynn?

 

[Qwynn]

I do use many other mods, but for the purpose of figuring out this issue I've removed everything save for the CBP-No EUI (CSD/C4Diplo/More Lux) and ExCE, which are the parameters I've been testing under.

I've tried disabling More Luxuries as well in case something had been going on there, but even then the CTDs still occur. I've also attempting using various maps in case it had been the Communitas map script causing the issues. I then went ahead and tested just CBP and ExCE (without CSD and Civ4 Diplo) and still encountered the CTD.

I did some additional testing and can now say that the current CTD is not actually turn related as I originally thought. It seems to be random. I thought it was connected to producing a unit as it seemed to crash on the turn units finished building, but in my last test I able to build a worker. Then I thought it was specifically scouts, but once I again I had a test in which one was built without an immediate CTD.

I seem to be crashing within the first ten turns, so I can't even get to a point where I can test if the trade deal CTD hotfix.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help. =<

I'm starting to think CIV5 has it out for me or something.

 

[shader301202]

I've a crash when the AI is processing their turn.
lua.log = http://pastebin.com/AHEATqwK
database.log = http://pastebin.com/BD7E7ViG

 

[Kesler]

No, not yet. I'll be looking at content updates after my trimester ends in November.

Is it standard in New Zealand Uni/Collages to have Trimesters rather than Semesters, or is that your specific school/course? Also, yay to not having to wait until the new year

 

[JFD]

I think it varies by University. Victoria Uni has three trimesters, with the third being November to February. Although I'll be taking two third trimester papers, they're only a month long each, and so only one is done at a time.

For Colonies, I expect it'll be a fairly simple implementation: there'll be no variety between types of colony, just a colony as a special type of puppet in which you have more freedom over. This means it won't be intensive to code (so performance friendly) and can be done quickly. Except when you build a Drill School or something, which'll be to unlock regular military training (as otherwise you can only train Militia, as in the original mod) and which'll give you the neat Fort graphic over the city and the prefix "Fort." Hopefully ya'll be ok with this simplification.

 

[Kesler]

A tri-trimester? And then two-thirds of a trimester, so a semester? When do you get summer? It seems like you're eternally at school.

I thought colonies were supposed to be simple in the first place. But if were refer to the original design document (TBD section) you were originally planning to have different types of Colonies. What types were you planning and why did you change your mind? (I'm guessing colony types would have been dependent on if they were coastal, land, resource heavy etc)

So now there will be no restrictions to Colony's? I always thought it to be a neat idea that colonies were a extension of your empire, but were unique in that they were more specialized in use. Also, is it possible to have Colonies abandon your empire and become City-States or new Civs? I wish it weren't so difficult, but I can only imagine the troubles killing of civs to reserve colony placement would cause. (Tho the idea is super cool )

 

[janboruta]

For Colonies, I expect it'll be a fairly simple implementation: there'll be no variety between types of colony, just a colony as a special type of puppet in which you have more freedom over. This means it won't be intensive to code (so performance friendly) and can be done quickly. Except when you build a Drill School or something, which'll be to unlock regular military training (as otherwise you can only train Militia, as in the original mod) and which'll give you the neat Fort graphic over the city and the prefix "Fort." Hopefully ya'll be ok with this simplification.

I like that. I feel that having a large number of colony types would make ordinary cities uninteresting by comparison - and thus would necessitate creating specialised types for normal cities to even out the fun factor. A simpler colony mechanic such as this one is perfectly sufficient. Although I admit I liked setting up Penal and Missionary colonies when they were available - but I won't weep over their loss, as I'm definitely in favour of a miles more stable mod. Particularly in this day and age, when a few system-intensive mods are pretty much essential to and mutually dependent.

 

[JFD]

A tri-trimester? And then two-thirds of a trimester, so a semester? When do you get summer? It seems like you're eternally at school.

I thought colonies were supposed to be simple in the first place. But if were refer to the original design document (TBD section) you were originally planning to have different types of Colonies. What types were you planning and why did you change your mind? (I'm guessing colony types would have been dependent on if they were coastal, land, resource heavy etc)

So now there will be no restrictions to Colony's? I always thought it to be a neat idea that colonies were a extension of your empire, but were unique in that they were more specialized in use. Also, is it possible to have Colonies abandon your empire and become City-States or new Civs? I wish it weren't so difficult, but I can only imagine the troubles killing of civs to reserve colony placement would cause. (Tho the idea is super cool )

Well, I don't get much of a break, because blah blah blah student loans and social security nonsense.

I guess you weren't around when Colonies was first (de-)implemented. At this time, I dismissed the TBD design, in favour of something more simple but still unique: a split between Chartered and Crown colonies. However, since I've made little progress differentiating the two, I've concluded that the best approach is to stick with the core function of colonies as special puppets for when your empire is overextended. The original design had Trade, Fort, Religious, Slave, and Penal Colonies, which each had their own unique bonuses and limited building pool. But it felt a bit messy. Fort Colonies will make a quasi-return in the form of Colonies with a Drill School, whilst Trade Colonies will make a return by way of the East India Company's buffing their Gold-on-Luxuries output (or something). Religious colonies didn't serve a lot of purpose, Slave colonies was always a bit of an underwhelming representation of the concept, and Penal colonies just fell flat without the others. So I've now settled on just colonies, and perhaps there can be a belief/reform/policy to ameliorate the loss of the rest.

They are still more specialized. They are good for gold and claiming land/luxuries without the penalty to Social Policies or Techs, as well as without the need to micro-manage their city lists, but the trade-off is that they are slow to grow and have a limited selection of buildings/units they can build. Loyalty will remain as an optional mechanic to handle colonies will low Loyalty resisting or revolting, but, even with the improvements to my coding skill and to the CP DLL, I still think the system will be very unstable (as it was in the original implementation) and it'll rely on less-than-ideal methods of creating new civs/city-states. Firaxis just didn't leave much room for the concept.

I like that. I feel that having a large number of colony types would make ordinary cities uninteresting by comparison - and thus would necessitate creating specialised types for normal cities to even out the fun factor. A simpler colony mechanic such as this one is perfectly sufficient. Although I admit I liked setting up Penal and Missionary colonies when they were available - but I won't weep over their loss, as I'm definitely in favour of a miles more stable mod. Particularly in this day and age, when a few system-intensive mods are pretty much essential to and mutually dependent.

Yeah, a nice belief can probably supplant the loss of religious colonies, and maybe the same for penal colonies via policy or Sov. reform.


So, for the record, I'll probably release the Colonies component before Tribes are re-implemented, and with it try to fine-tune and improve the efficiency and compatibility of the existing mechanics. I'm still completely stumped in the latter's regard.

 

[Kesler]

Who needs money these days?

Slavery can be reintroduced via Sovereignty, as I think that was an option for labor. Or you you can simply have bonus Sovereignty reforms available when ExCE is enabled, with the new reforms tailored to the unique components of ExCE such as Colony's and Tribes.

Speaking of Tribes, what has you stuck? I believe last I read, you were trying to allow for Tribes to have their own inner borders (unless you assimilate them ). Is this proving tough code wise? (Darn you Firaxis, you better make Rising Tides great (Or make Civ 6 incredible))

I would hate to see Tribes disappear completely, so if there is truly no where else to go, could you at least re implement them to spawn as normal and allow for unique bonuses when in your borders? Or are there other design ideas you're juggling around?

Edit: For colonies, could they at least be more susceptible to major Civilizations around them? I rarely see a city flip in my games, but Colonies could allow for that to happen (Of course, that wouldn't properly reflect quelling a rebellion without going to war with perhaps a major ally... Again, darn you Firaxis. Great game, but what happened to the days when modding was more flexible )

 

[JFD]

Yeah, there's an Emancipated/Corvee/Slavery reform in Sov's industrial branch.

I still cannot figure how to actually indicate the borders on the tiles, as the typical ways of doing this is hardcoded like nothing else. It would actually otherwise be a very simple mechanic to implement. I don't want them to disappear, either, but it's too early to say for certain that I can't get around this issue.

IIRC, colonies flipping to nearby civs was an option; there are several options, varying in stability. The first was that low loyalty meant it could turn into its own civ/city-state. The next was that it could turn into a barb or flip to a nearby civ. The final was just several turns of resistance. The second option is probably the nicest middle-ground, but all three will be there in the end for users to choose between (although resistance may occur at higher levels of loyalty - loyalty is tiered, and only the lowest-lowest (below 25%) will run the risk of revolting/flipping).

 

[Tarmont]

Yeah, there's an Emancipated/Corvee/Slavery reform in Sov's industrial branch.

I still cannot figure how to actually indicate the borders on the tiles, as the typical ways of doing this is hardcoded like nothing else. It would actually otherwise be a very simple mechanic to implement. I don't want them to disappear, either, but it's too early to say for certain that I can't get around this issue.

Hm, I don't know exactly what you intend to do with the tribe's borders, but can you give them civ borders owned by barbarians?

 

[Kesler]

You could branch that up further by having Colony specific Labor reforms (Slavery being one of them) or as per the original plan have reforms empire wide.

Is there no way to hard code them to be treated as city states, but with their features stripped out and replaced with your code? (They have reduced border growth or none, you can cross their territory). After thinking about it, I can imagine all the problems these can cause... If the only problem is indicating their borders...

Maybe have some sort of graphic that emanates from their village/tribe tile (What is the correct term for the tiles with tribes on them? Certainly not resources or luxuries) so that all the tiles surrounding the tribe tile have some sort of colored layering over them. I have a feeling that visually it's not that easy tho...

Is it possible to turn it into a Barb City inhabited by Rebels (So Rebel City?) if no other civ has attracted it with their culture and beliefs? That would give increased use to any promotions, beliefs, and policies against Barbaric/Rebellious scum.

I think it would be a good idea to blend your second idea with the third, with perhaps Rebels appearing near the city, quantity depending on loyalty (Below 75% produces 1-2, below 50% produces 2-3 etc)

 

[JFD]

Hm, I don't know exactly what you intend to do with the tribe's borders, but can you give them civ borders owned by barbarians?

Not really, as then they couldn't be contained within a civ's borders, which is half the point of the system (as you may want to keep their borders to work the tiles).

You could branch that up further by having Colony specific Labor reforms (Slavery being one of them) or as per the original plan have reforms empire wide.

Is there no way to hard code them to be treated as city states, but with their features stripped out and replaced with your code? (They have reduced border growth or none, you can cross their territory). After thinking about it, I can imagine all the problems these can cause... If the only problem is indicating their borders...

Maybe have some sort of graphic that emanates from their village/tribe tile (What is the correct term for the tiles with tribes on them? Certainly not resources or luxuries) so that all the tiles surrounding the tribe tile have some sort of colored layering over them. I have a feeling that visually it's not that easy tho...

Is it possible to turn it into a Barb City inhabited by Rebels (So Rebel City?) if no other civ has attracted it with their culture and beliefs? That would give increased use to any promotions, beliefs, and policies against Barbaric/Rebellious scum.

I think it would be a good idea to blend your second idea with the third, with perhaps Rebels appearing near the city, quantity depending on loyalty (Below 75% produces 1-2, below 50% produces 2-3 etc)

Because there is a hard-coded limit on the number of players in a given game, I can't really take any out to reserve for City-States. Plus, there arises the same issue as with Tarcisio's proposition. All things I've considered but dismissed for one reason or another.

I suppose you'd call a Tribe a 'Feature,' but technically they are an improvement. And I'm not sure what kind of graphic would indicate the borders well. But it is an incredibly frustrating dilemma.

That's basically how it works when there are no City-States or civs to create; the colony will becomes a barbarian-controlled city. It's a bit more conceptually vapid, but it has no functional issues.

The problem with that being that the AI is usually too stupid to do anything with rebels. This is certainly what happens with Event-spawn Rebels. The issue would only be made more obvious here. Of course, Rebels will spawn alongside a flipping city, but to do the same with a resisting city is pretty much pointless.

 

[Tarmont]

Hmm not sure how that "city limits" mod works, but would something like it work to showcase which tiles belong to a tribe? I think that you can't "grow" it dynamically like borders, but you can increase the size of the circle.

It looks like this, if you aren't familiar with the mod:

Spoiler :

 

[Kesler]

I suppose it wouldn't be clear enough to the player to simply say any tile next to a Tribe Feature belongs to them? Could the land around the Tribe have some specialized Tribe variant texture of land? (Bad Idea, I know) Could the land around the Tribe Feature have some sort of native village texture, like tee-pees, huts etc that organically fit in with the environment without covering a resource. When I suggested graphic, I was imagining some Hexagon shape with a shade of color that could spawn on the tiles adjacent. As I say it I can see how it doesn't work tho.

Man, you weren't kidding. We need to form a think tank on this one. I feel like there is a way. But how.

Ah, classic AI. Really, Rebels and Barbs spawned in are just there to cause temporary trouble. It would be far more useful if the Rebels spawned up when your army was far away, or right when someone invades you.

Edit: Ignore my suggestions, Tarcisiocm might have a Cure-All. Not meaning to jump the horse, but that's smart. If the circles could be adjusted to a base Tribe size, and then only appear overtop of tribes...

Edit 2: Loving that Spain Hype