ExtraModMod continued

[lfgr]

@westamastaflash, thanks for the savegame, I'll look at it at some point and will figure out what exactly is wrong then.

Some of the info for the civic is rather misleading, however. Not only does the Civilopedia entry state that Arete gives +20% Great Person Birth Rate in Cities with State Religion, but mousing over it on the Civics screen show that it gives +20% Great Person Birth Rate in Cities with your particular state religion. E.g. if your state religion is Octopus Overlords, it it shows that Arete gives +20% Great Person Birth Rate in Cities with Octopus Overlords. Even though it also says "Reqs Runes of Kilmorph".

Good point. This is due to the game trying to be smart in the civics screen (well, it actually works in BtS). I'll either replace this with the pedia wording or try to make it actually smart.

 

[westamastaflash]

This is quite odd. How did they spawn on top of my swordsman? Is this expected behavior?

EDIT: I think they spawned because I built Nox Noctis so my swordsman is invisible.

 

[lfgr]

I think they spawned because I built Nox Noctis so my swordsman is invisible.

Yes, the spawning code checks for visible units of other players. I guess that is consistent with how invisibility works in other cases. But that's annoying for sure, is there some ability to dispel the invisibility from Nox Noctis? I don't rember right now.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yes, the spawning code checks for visible units of other players. I guess that is consistent with how invisibility works in other cases. But that's annoying for sure, is there some ability to dispel the invisibility from Nox Noctis? I don't rember right now.

Yes, that is what Reveal is for.

        <SpellInfo>
            <Type>SPELL_REVEAL</Type>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_SPELL_REVEAL</Description>
            <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_SPELL_PLACEHOLDER_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
            <Help>TXT_KEY_SPELL_REVEAL_HELP</Help>
            <BuildingClassOwnedPrereq>BUILDINGCLASS_NOX_NOCTIS</BuildingClassOwnedPrereq>
            <bHasCasted>1</bHasCasted>
            <bAbility>1</bAbility>
            <PyResult>spellReveal(pCaster)</PyResult>
            <PyRequirement>reqReveal(pCaster)</PyRequirement>
            <Effect>EFFECT_SPELL1</Effect>
            <Sound>AS3D_SPELL_REVELATION</Sound>
            <Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Spells/Reveal.dds</Button>
        </SpellInfo>

def reqReveal(caster):
   if caster.isIgnoreHide():
       return False
   pPlot = caster.plot()
   if pPlot.getOwner() != caster.getOwner():
       return False
   return True

def spellReveal(caster):
   caster.setIgnoreHide(True)

 

[lfgr]

I see, thanks. I guess it's fine then, you'll need to reveal your units if you want to block a lair in your territory.

 

[lfgr]

I've got a weird error where I can't leave Tribalism now. I switched religions out of ROK, and now I'm stuck in tribalism, can't even go back to Arete...

This will be fixed in the next release. I attached a hotfix DLL, unpack the archive and replace your CvGameCoreDLL.dll in the Assets folder. Thanks for the report and the save!

 

[westamastaflash]

The Sheaim seem *really* powerful. Tebryn is currently running around with a massive doomstack of witches destroying everything in sight. The poor elves asked me to vassal them earlier when we were killing the dark elves, then Tebryn DOW on us. I am playing on 'epic', does the unit spawning scale with game speed? These witches are insane - massive numbers of pit beasts are leveling the elves (and already leveled the Hippus). Monarch mode and I'm barely 1/3 of the way into the tech tree.

Oh, and Os-Gabella is busy wiping the Doviello off the map as well.

 

[westamastaflash]

About 10-12 turns later, and all of my level 6 units (and about 8-10 crusaders i managed to get built)...

 

[lfgr]

The Sheaim seem *really* powerful. Tebryn is currently running around with a massive doomstack of witches destroying everything in sight. The poor elves asked me to vassal them earlier when we were killing the dark elves, then Tebryn DOW on us. I am playing on 'epic', does the unit spawning scale with game speed? These witches are insane - massive numbers of pit beasts are leveling the elves (and already leveled the Hippus). Monarch mode and I'm barely 1/3 of the way into the tech tree.

Planar gates and Mobius witches were boosted considerably in the Erebus in the Balance mod. Spawning speed and maximum of all planar gate units has been increased, and, more importantly, Mobius witches are now buildable with planar gates and Knowledge of the Ether. See here for some rationale on this. It seems the main argument is the comparison with Vampires.

An AI steamrolling other AIs like this is a bad sign. The first question is whether that big stack of Mobius witches comes from spawning or from building.

Let us first assume it's mainly from building them. We have to take into account is that EitB is designed for Multiplayer, and something that is balanced in Multiplayer might be not in AI games, as the AI simply does not understand some strategies. It seems reasonable that the "Get KotE, build planar gates and spam(-build) Mobius witches" is a particularily easy strategy; or maybe the AI even gets to having KotE and planar gates by accident and then realizes that Mobius witches are good to build.
The only mitigation I see here (without disturbing multiplayer balance too much) is to increase the cost of Mobius witches a bit. It seemed to be quite aggressively costed in EitB anyway.

Now let us assume it's mainly from spawning. First, there is no scaling for game speed, which seems weird, as this influences unit production costs. Second, the spawning speed has been increased in EitB (roughly doubled). Third, the maximum number of units per city, both for building and for spawning, has been increased by a factor of 10. It highly depends on the AC (this is somehow scaled, I'll have to check that), i.e. the number of units per city is roughly one 3rd of the AC in EMM, as opposed to one 30th in FfH.

So we should first find out if the big stack comes from spawning or building. Then I'll see how to nerf planar gates. It would be helpful if you could post the BBAI.log and a savegame (from before the steamrolling, if possible). If someone wants to try themselves, decrease PLANAR_GATE_CHANCE in GlobalDefinesAlt.xml, this will decrease the spawning chance.

Lastly, I can't remember observing that myself. This could be due to different settings(I play mostly on Small/Normal maps with Normal/Epic game speed) or due to variance (strategy depends on how fast AI researches KotE).

 

[westamastaflash]

Yeah, definitely different settings. I was trying for a long game that would bring up the Armageddon counter (the last game it only got to 25).

Tectonics_mst
Small
Mediterranean

Advanced Tactics

Allow Extra Leaders
Allow Scenario Leaders
Blessing of Amathon
Last Days
Living World
No Tech Brokering
Puppet States
Raging Barbarians
Tech Propagation
Wildlands

Conquest victory only one turned on.
12 Civs (I picked 2 Sheaim AIs to help push up the AC).

I did one 'regenerate map', made a few minor changes to start position in worldbuilder and changed my tolerant trait to the charismatic trait.

I wasn't quite expecting such a massive sheaim powerhouse so fast. And the fact that the generally strong armies of the Doveillo and Hippus were overrun so easily bothers me.

Given that the Sheaim seem to get really powerful with a higher AC, I could see them being pretty strong. But *this* strong?

Attached are several save games, log files, etc, in a zip archive.

 

[westamastaflash]

I get a crash after ending turn, even after multiple reloads.

Update: Apparently if you delete the Goblin and Wolf on the small, island south of the Sidar homeland, the crash doesn't occur.

 

[westamastaflash]

Another item. Galleons have 4 movement, while queens of the line only have 3, but once you get QOLs, you cannot build galleons anymore (in cities with shipyards). I changed this for me by marking galleons 'never obsolete'. I was thinking of making QOLs a 'max 4 of this' unit and changing their move to 5.

The Man of War is strictly an upgrade to Frigate - more powerful and faster speed, but QOLs are really slow...

 

[DuskTreader]

I

The Sheaim seem *really* powerful. Tebryn is currently running around with a massive doomstack of witches destroying everything in sight. The poor elves asked me to vassal them earlier when we were killing the dark elves, then Tebryn DOW on us. I am playing on 'epic', does the unit spawning scale with game speed? These witches are insane - massive numbers of pit beasts are leveling the elves (and already leveled the Hippus). Monarch mode and I'm barely 1/3 of the way into the tech tree.

Oh, and Os-Gabella is busy wiping the Doviello off the map as well.

View attachment 535437

I'm pretty sure the Sheaim are supposed to be incredibly powerful, because they are the "main villain" of the game and the main driver of the Armageddon Counter. I've figured out a few strategies to counter their favorite tactic (witch-swarm) but the AI doesn't really stand a chance

 

[lfgr]

Another item. Galleons have 4 movement, while queens of the line only have 3, but once you get QOLs, you cannot build galleons anymore (in cities with shipyards). I changed this for me by marking galleons 'never obsolete'. I was thinking of making QOLs a 'max 4 of this' unit and changing their move to 5.

The Man of War is strictly an upgrade to Frigate - more powerful and faster speed, but QOLs are really slow...

I'll check if there is some specific reason for this, otherwise I agree that they should have at least 4 movement.

I'm pretty sure the Sheaim are supposed to be incredibly powerful, because they are the "main villain" of the game and the main driver of the Armageddon Counter. I've figured out a few strategies to counter their favorite tactic (witch-swarm) but the AI doesn't really stand a chance

Nah, I don't think they were supposed to be more powerful in either vanilla FfH 2, and it's also questionable at the very least whether they are the main villain. Besides, the strong Möbius Witch rush is an EMM thing, as I explained above, and Terkhen definitely wanted them to be balanced. Sheaim should only have an advantage at high Armageddon Counter.

 

[westamastaflash]

an advantage at high Armageddon Counter.

I guess the question is 'what is a high AC' - 40, 60, 80?

Also, the Queen of the Line has 16 str costing 225hammers and a cargo of 10, while the Man of War only has 13 and costs 225 as well. Seems like QOL is all around better (except for movement) and doesn't even require blasting powder. The History text for QOL seems to indicate that it 'was not designed for naval warfare'

 

[westamastaflash]

Got an error when playing extramodmod with the Momus scenario. Not sure if extramodmod is intended to work with the scenarios or not.

 

[westamastaflash]

Are the treants spawned by the FOL high priests 'unlimited' in number? I currently have 73 str 11 empower V treants, growing by 4 each turn.

 

[lfgr]

Are the treants spawned by the FOL high priests 'unlimited' in number? I currently have 73 str 11 empower V treants, growing by 4 each turn.

No, they should be limited in either duration or number. I'll look into it.

 

[westamastaflash]

Screenshot:

Here's the XML. It doesn't seem to have any limits specified.

            <Type>SPELL_SUMMON_TREANT</Type>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_SPELL_SUMMON_TREANT</Description>
            <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_SPELL_PLACEHOLDER_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
            <UnitClassPrereq>UNITCLASS_HIGH_PRIEST_OF_LEAVES</UnitClassPrereq>
            <FeatureOrPrereq1>FEATURE_FOREST</FeatureOrPrereq1>
            <FeatureOrPrereq2>FEATURE_FOREST_ANCIENT</FeatureOrPrereq2>
            <bAllowAI>1</bAllowAI>
            <bDisplayWhenDisabled>1</bDisplayWhenDisabled>
            <bHasCasted>1</bHasCasted>
            <CreateUnitType>UNIT_TREANT</CreateUnitType>
            <iCreateUnitNum>1</iCreateUnitNum>
            <bPermanentUnitCreate>1</bPermanentUnitCreate>
            <Effect>EFFECT_NATURE_SUMMON</Effect>
            <Sound>AS3D_SPELL_BLOOM</Sound>
            <Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Units/Treant.dds</Button>

What's odd is that the summon tiger *is* blocked if i've already reached the max (# of units that can summon tigers).

 

[lfgr]

The limits are working as follows: The game counts the total number of units with the summoned unit's type (tiger/treant), ignoring whether those have been summoned or not (e.g. captured tigers). Then it counts the number of units that can cast the spell, but for this, it only checks PromotionPrereq1, PromotionPrereq2 and ReligionPrereq, but not UnitClassPrereq (which is why it currently works for tigers, but not for treants). So adding a check for UnitClassPrereq should fix that.

Still, I think this is pretty unintuitive. I thought for a long time that the limit were just 1 per caster (as in, every caster can only control one summoned unit at the time). Counting non-summoned units with the same type seems especially weird.