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ExtraModMod continued

Discussion in 'More Naval AI Modmod' started by lfgr, Jun 16, 2019.

  1. lfgr

    lfgr King

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    I ran some (very limited) AI vs. AI tests. Specifically, I tested the following sets of players:
    (1) Capria, Garrim Gyr, Tya Kiri, Shekinah, Os-Gabella, Weevil, Pickle and Hyde
    (2) Auric Ulvin, Mahala, Alexis, Varn Gosam, Cardith Lorda, Ethne the White

    Note that (1) has 2 good, 2 neutral and 2 evil; and (2) has 3 evil and 3 good.

    I ran 9 games with configuration (1) and 5 with (2). The game options were fairly standard, but trying to reduce random interference. Notably: "Balanced" mapscript, small, quick, no barbarians/lairs/acheron/orthus, compact enforced, no puppet states. I ran the games until turn 450, whoever lived by then, won. Eliminated players are ranked by time of elimination. Here are the results, with average rank +- standard deviation and number of games won:

    (1)
    Tya Kiri: 2.3 (0.68-4.0); 3 + 1/3 games won (3 games won alone and 1 won with 2 others)
    Garrim Gyr: 2.4 (1.1-3.8); 1 + 1/2 games won
    Os-Gabella: 3.6 (1.9-5.2); 2 games won
    Capria: 3.6 (1.5-5.6); 2*(1/2) + 1/3 games won
    Shekinah: 3.6 (1.6-5.5); 1/2 + 1/3 games won
    Weevil, Pickle and Hyde: 5.0 (3.9-6.1)

    (2)
    Auric Ulvin: 1.6 (0.26-2.9); 1 + 3*(1/2)
    Mahala: 2.2 (0.9-3.5); 2*(1/2)
    Alexis: 2.4 (0.45-4.3) 3*(1/2)
    Ethne the White: 4.0 (2.6-5.4)
    Cardith Lorda: 4.8 (3.5-6.1)
    Varn Gosam: 5.2 (4.4-6.0)

    In (1), Weevil is notably worse than everybody else. This is to be expected, as with "No Barbarians" on, the barbarian trait is a straight -10% research and no bonus. Tya Kiri seemed to dominate a lot of games, not sure what is going on there.

    (2) strongly supports @swapoer's hypothesis. No good civ ever lasted until the end. Alexis actually was a bit worse than Auric and Mahala, because 2 times she just managed to stay around until the end because the strongest civ didn't finish her off.

    There are, of course, multiple possible reaseons for this. swapoer's suggestion that the evil civs are better suited for earlier war might be correct. However, especially for Doviello this is kind of their main thing, so I'm unsure if I want to take that from them. Also, in one game Elohim were leading the scoreboard until midgame, only to be utterly destroyed by the Illians later.

    I think trying to get the good civs to work together is the best way to tackle this for now. I'll see what is possible. Disliking players who start aggressive wars would probably a good thing generally. On the other hand, maybe the evil civs should also work together less. By what I observed, the evil players seemed generally happy to dogpile on single good players. I think the dogpiling itself is fine and in-character, but they should probably be just as eager to do it with other evil players as they are with good players.
    Maybe I'll just remove the "You are evil" diplomacy bonus, at least among AIs, if that's possible. That should mostly just affect the early game.

    I'd be happy to here more ideas on this.
    If someone has too much time on their hands, it would be probably best to run a lot of games and only consider the winner each time. It seems that this is the most consistent metric; very weak civs can be eliminated quite late in some circumstances.

    For now, I'd advise you to use not too many evil civs at once, or try to find and pick weaker ones.

    EDIT: I should mention that my tests were done on an unreleased build that already toned down sheaim planar gate spawning, so you might get different results in that regard.
     
    Passer2000 and swapoer like this.
  2. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    very interesting study.
    it'll be interesting if good civs / upper council had cooperation bonus (also some things that are mechanics, and not AI - related or diplo relations).

    (NB; the bonus of good civs should have been that you are protected from Hell terrain much longer...
    the issue is that Hell terrain is not so damaging ; at least not compared to plain / tundra. it's real issue is essentially the resource disapearance ;
    but I guess that original Hell terrain was too harsh on civs, even with Sacrifice the Weak).

    I don't know if it's the thematically good leaders/civs that should be boosted or the good religions / council (where does the dichotomy good/evil appear ??
    if its before religion/council, then it's a civ/leader aspect combo
    if its after, it's a religion/council (but can alos be a civ / unit effect)

    what is your diagnosis ?
     
  3. Tielby

    Tielby Prince

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    Hey all. I've just installed ExtraModMod for the first time (v0.6.0-beta3u-fixed). (Been playing with the most recent versions of MNAI for years.) In the Custom Game screen, I check the box for Unrestricted Leaders, but I still can't change the civilizations of any of the leaders I've chosen. Any idea why?
     
  4. lfgr

    lfgr King

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    This is a problem with the reordering of the game options, I will fix it in the next release. A workaround is to select the "No tribal villages" option.
     
    DarkLunaPhantom and Tielby like this.
  5. DarkLunaPhantom

    DarkLunaPhantom Prince Supporter

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    If I recall correctly, Unrestricted Leaders option must be in the 8th place because exe thinks it's there. What I did in one mod was to put a hidden dummy option there which is set to be always selected and then you can have additional Unrestricted Leaders option wherever you want since FFH2 has its own code which assigns Random Leaders and Civs anyway (i.e. it bypasses the exe). This way you can always pick whatever Leader you want in the Custom Game screen, but the game would assign them like that only if your new option is selected.
     
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  6. Tielby

    Tielby Prince

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    Might that also be the reason my current game doesn't seem to have any raw mana nodes? Maybe when I was selecting options, since they're mislabeled now, I somehow caused that? Back in the day, I remember some resources were placed last, and if you turned on the option that doubled the number of resources on the map, some resources never appeared. But that was a long time ago.
     
  7. lfgr

    lfgr King

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    I don't believe so. Reordering gameoptions is no problem normally, and they are not really mislabeled. It's only that the exe (not the dll) references the "Lead any civ" option directly, by ID, and I obviously cannot change that.

    An unrelated problem is that some of the hidden gameoptions, which are only for scenarios, are activated because the game retains options from games with other mods. A fix for this is to start a Play Now! game first, which clears all gameoptions, and then starts a custom game.
     
    Tielby likes this.
  8. Tielby

    Tielby Prince

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    That seems to have worked... and also gave me no tribal villages. :lol:
     
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  9. lfgr

    lfgr King

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    Well, yeah, the exe thinks that "No tribal villages" is "Lead any civ", but the dll knows what it is and will act accordingly. :)
     
  10. lfgr

    lfgr King

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    New release: 0.6.0-beta4
    Download setup
    | Download archive

    With Terkhen's permission, this mod is now called ExtraModMod, without "unofficial".

    This release mainly incorporates fixes and improvements from MNAI v2.8.1u and v2.9-beta1u (changelog). Other than that, I fixed some of the problems reported in this thread: Sheaim Planar gate spawning now has a much lower cap, Treant and Kraken summons are capped again, and the "Lead any civ" option should now work correctly. Finally, I added a little idea for animals that Terkhen proposed some years ago.

    For a more detailed list of changes, see the full changelog.

    Thanks to everybody who reported bugs!
     
  11. Tielby

    Tielby Prince

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    Ummmmm. Why can't I change civics?
     

    Attached Files:

  12. DuskTreader

    DuskTreader Chieftain

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    I extracted the setup and ran it and got an error when I tried to launch a custom game. I've attached the python error log. I've also attached a screenshot of my choices though I've also tried a different mapscript and it didn't help.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. DuskTreader

    DuskTreader Chieftain

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    I deleted my FFH, reinstalled it and the o patch, confirmed that it still runs and tried to do the extramodmod archive instead of the installer. Things got worse. Now I'm getting this error on launch. I'm going to delete my FFH again and try a third time with a fresh FFH and the installer. I checked that my BTS is 3.1.9 so the patch isn't an issue. I'm going to try again with a fresh installer and a new FFH
     

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  14. DuskTreader

    DuskTreader Chieftain

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    So the map error persists but at least its not throwing an error on loading anymore. There's another thing though: I am the Kuriorites. I've just started the game via Play Now which does work. I can build smugglers ports and the shrine of champions. wut.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. lfgr

    lfgr King

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    Hm, I can, even in your save. What exactly doesn't work?

    @DuskTreader: I can identify the GFCError; I forgot to update Resource/Civ4.thm for the new install location. I'll upload a new installer, but you can try replacing your Resource/Civ4.thm with the following in the meantime (if you didn't already):
    Code:
    // *** Control Bitmap Theme file
    
    // Set the resource
    resource_path   "Mods/ExtraModMod/Resource";
    
    // Setup common properties
    include           "Mods/ExtraModMod/Resource/Themes/Civ4/Civ4Theme.thm";
    
    If you don't do that, you'll get the GFC error if you don't have Fall from Heaven 2 still installed.

    As for your other errors, I have no clue. I tried a custom game with your exact settings and everything seemed to work fine, both with the installer and the archive. Could you maybe try if MNAI-U works?.

    Does anybody else have the same problems?

    EDIT: @DuskTreader, from your screenshot it looks like you playing in admin mode. This should not be necessary. It's a bit of a long shot, but maybe that is causing problems?
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2020
  16. Tielby

    Tielby Prince

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    EDIT: Same problem in the newest version of MNAI, so it's not EMM specific.
    Figured it out. The Civics screen is taller in EMM now. At the resolution I'm running, the bottom bar of the Civics screen, where you have the options to Exit (when you haven't selected a civic change) or Cancel or Revolution (when you have selected a civic change) is below the bottom of my screen. I can't see those options (have to hit the Escape key to get out of that screen), so I can't select Revolution. As I mentioned a few posts back, I was playing only MNAI until very recently, so I don't know if the change in size is from this most recent version or it has been that way for a long time.
    I'm attaching a screenshot, so you can see what I see.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2020
  17. lfgr

    lfgr King

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    Ah, thanks for investigating. My full-screen advisor code doesn't allow screen heights below 768, but you can set 720 in the options. Still, when I tried selecting height 720, all the advisors where partly cut off, even in other mods. Didn't you experience that?

    Anyway, I attached a patch in case you want to try it.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. DuskTreader

    DuskTreader Chieftain

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    I updated Resource/Civ4.thm but nothing changed. I don't think I'm playing in admin mode, the account I play from is just called Admin. That, or I don't know what Admin mode is/how to turn it off. I've realized that I can also research Seafaring from the start which I'm not supposed to be able to do. I haven't tried MNAI-U yet. I'll let you know when I do.
     
  19. DuskTreader

    DuskTreader Chieftain

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    With MoreNavalAI I can't pick exactly the same settings but a similar set of settings does start a game. However, I can still research Seafaring and build smugglers ports and the Shrine of the Champion so something is still clearly wrong in a way that's shared between the two mods. No one else sees this?
     
  20. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I have not downloaded or played this modmod but from your description the obvious place to look for a bug is in CvGameUtils.py
     

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