Fabula Terra Development Thread

[johny smith]

Hi Johny.

This is one of the greatest ideas for a mod I have ever seen. I hope you manage to implement it well!

The biggest problem I see is performance. If you create a huge giant map with tons of civs in it, it is going to choke most systems. I am thinking Rise of Mankind and its performance issues (e.g., on my old machine, the game would hang somewhere around 1AD on large maps because of stack overflow or whatever.)

I think that Drake's idea to create more detailed regional maps for earlier eras and scale up as you progress through history would be a lot better performance-wise. (It was also the first thing that popped to my mind when I've read about Fabula Terra.) Unless you have a really good idea how to make your mod really efficient... It is no fun really to wait 15 minutes (or hours) between turns - and I can definitely see that coming with this mod. How do you want to deal with this?

I am not against the map idea. I would like it even. I just doubt it is possible. I do know we can improve performance by not having so many civs running around. That is the only thing I know for sure at this point. If less is going on in the game naturally it will run smoother.

 

[JtW]

Why wouldn't it be possible? The only problem would be to port existing cities etc. to a map with a different scale - you could have hard-coded references that tiles a1 through a6 (or whatever) become 1 tile, say, b3 in the new map - it could necessitate merging of some cities into one, etc., but it is definitely doable.

I support this idea because it would add depth and complexity in the earlier Eras and it would give you a feeling of starting anew after an Era change, where you would zoom out to a larger map - you would see how your 5 Neolithic settlements suddenly become 1 city on a bigger scale...

 

[am138]

Just realised I previously posted this in the old thread, I really should read these things, anyway:

Just incase nobody thought of mentioning it already (truth be told I haven't read through all nine pages) I reckon the other 'species'(?) (Neanderthals, etc.) should lean towards being warlike. From what little I know of sapien-neanderthal relations, it's widely believed that the two often engaged in war - so like with the vanilla game when you can set AI to warlike tendencies, a similar level of hostility should be displayed?

Anyway I love the sound of the mod.

 

[imperiex1]

Should we discuss this over at the dedicated forum?

 

[johny smith]

Why wouldn't it be possible? The only problem would be to port existing cities etc. to a map with a different scale - you could have hard-coded references that tiles a1 through a6 (or whatever) become 1 tile, say, b3 in the new map - it could necessitate merging of some cities into one, etc., but it is definitely doable.

I support this idea because it would add depth and complexity in the earlier Eras and it would give you a feeling of starting anew after an Era change, where you would zoom out to a larger map - you would see how your 5 Neolithic settlements suddenly become 1 city on a bigger scale...

There was no way to modify the code in the previous version to do this. That does not mean it can not be done in Civ5. We have not seen the game yet. But most of the functions like this was locked away in the exe in Civ4. We have to see the game first. I wanted to do the same thing Civ4 and we could not see how to remake a map in the middle of the game because it was mostly in the exe. This is what you are really going to need to do in order for this to work. There was no multiple maps allowed in Civ4 as well. Otherwise you would see the planes of hell in FFH as a separate map. I am not ruling it out. I just am saying very unlikely to be possible.

 

[imperiex1]

There was no way to modify the code in the previous version to do this. That does not mean it can not be done in Civ5. We have not seen the game yet. But most of the functions like this was locked away in the exe in Civ4. We have to see the game first. I wanted to do the same thing Civ4 and we could not see how to remake a map in the middle of the game because it was mostly in the exe. This is what you are really going to need to do in order for this to work. There was no multiple maps allowed in Civ4 as well. Otherwise you would see the planes of hell in FFH as a separate map. I am not ruling it out. I just am saying very unlikely to be possible.

I think that it is highly unlikely that this can be done, but we still need to try.

Also, how many techs should there be in the generic tech tree?(I am thinking around 150.)

 

[johny smith]

Also, how many techs should there be in the generic tech tree?(I am thinking around 150.)

Well I mean I want regional tech trees first. I don't know what generic tree to make yet if any. We need to move Iron working to the Iron age for example. There should be many techs moved, and the abilities shifted to different times on some of the current techs. After that we need to add in things to fill in holes. At least that is what I am thinking now. I could use some suggestions for regional techs, but I will work on it more when I actually have the ability to make regional tech trees.

 

[JtW]

There was no way to modify the code in the previous version to do this. That does not mean it can not be done in Civ5. We have not seen the game yet. But most of the functions like this was locked away in the exe in Civ4. We have to see the game first. I wanted to do the same thing Civ4 and we could not see how to remake a map in the middle of the game because it was mostly in the exe. This is what you are really going to need to do in order for this to work. There was no multiple maps allowed in Civ4 as well. Otherwise you would see the planes of hell in FFH as a separate map. I am not ruling it out. I just am saying very unlikely to be possible.

This is a good explanation. I wasn't aware of that. Isn't there a mechanism, though, that lets you import settings into a scenario? You could do this as a set of scenarios with different maps - you finish the "Neolithic" scenario, then you start a "Bronze Age" one which imports your data from a file written to by the previous one.

I am not a coder so these are wild ideas maybe - but maybe not

 

[johny smith]

This is a good explanation. I wasn't aware of that. Isn't there a mechanism, though, that lets you import settings into a scenario? You could do this as a set of scenarios with different maps - you finish the "Neolithic" scenario, then you start a "Bronze Age" one which imports your data from a file written to by the previous one.

I am not a coder so these are wild ideas maybe - but maybe not

I had the same ideas before as well, but was not possible. All I can say is lets wait and see. It was not possible before so I am thinking it will be hard to do, but who knows maybe it easy to even do in Civ5.

 

[Szpilman]

I've seen someone working on a savefile reader for Civ IV, I guess the idea of having a scenario being created from another would work, but it might depend on an external utility (commandline or GUI) to create a new-game savefile from the previous scenario's savefile. So that means you would maybe need to minimize Civ to produce your new scenario, then load it up. Or maybe with Lua we can do it from within the mod's main menu.

 

[johny smith]

We may try something in the future with maps. I want to layout regional tech trees first so people can get an idea where to make civs.

I want different stages of Mesoamerican weaponry in their tree. Different Stone technology(possibly resources as well). Different possible plant and animal domestication. Different civics..and I will probably find more things.

Now I just am thinking more on the Americas at the moment. We need to do for each region. I want to have some more unique features found commonly in a region. We may have to shift regions around. I would like any suggestions on the regions themselves.

 

[Emperor Bosco I]

Regions should probably include:

Middle East (including Greece and Macedon, and probably Egypt)
The Indian Sub-continent
Oceania
Far and Southeast (with Eastern Russia)
East Europe (Poland over to Urals)
West Europe and North Africa
Africa
Arctic America
North America (Contiguous 48)
Mesoamerica
South America

There might be a bit of Asia missing, but no one is there really anyway.

 

[johny smith]

Well I will explain what my initial thinking is and perhaps it is flawed. I was hoping to balance clearly strong nations in each region. Then later try to find uniqueness.

1. West Europe
France,England,Spain,Portugal for example

2. Central Europe
Germany,Rome, Scandinavia, Greece(maybe should be East)

3. East Europe
Poland, Russia(could be many forms of Russia), and in general Slavic countries

4. North Africa
Carthage, Berbers, Egypt, and anything in on the Northern Coast

5. East Africa
Ethiopia, Horn of Africa, and anything south on the eastern side of the continent

6. West Africa
Niger river area. Mali, Songhai, Ghana, and anything south along the coast to the present border of Namibia and South Africa.

7. Middle East
Levant, Fertile Crescent, Anatolia, from Black Sea and Caucasus mountains on the north, Aegean Sea and Africa on the West, Persia being outside of it on the East.

8. Central Asia
Persia to Kazakhstan. Anything that was inhabited by Iranian languages speakers at one point.

9. South Asia
The Indian Subcontinent, and areas that were effected by the Indian culture.

10. East Asia
Southeast Asia and China(excluding Mongolian majority areas and Manchuria)

11. North Asia
Siberia, Mongolia, Manchuria, Korea, and Japan

12. Oceania
Australia, New Guinea, and Pacific Islands. This is really going to be weak in comparison.

13. West North America
Western cultures as in the Southwest USA, Northwest USA and Western Canada, Californian tribes, and Western Arctic North America.

14 East North America
Mound builders later Southeast USA Natives, Iroquois, Cherokee, Sioux(could possibly go to the West), Eastern Arctic North America

15. Mesoamerica
Mexico, Central America, and include the Caribbean.

16. South America
Andean cultures, and needing to guess on some Eastern South American cultures.

Well that is the general idea I had. It may be a bad balance. The one really weak region is Oceania. The tech trees though would be a little more perhaps to make differences in West, Central, and East Europe because of being artificially placed. If this is not interesting please tell me.

 

[Thormodr]

This looks really, really good.

Some really excellent ideas floating around here.

I really like the idea of having 5 neolithic villages and finishing the area and then "zooming out" to having one city in the next era. That sounds pretty cool.

Hopefully ciV is extremely moddable as promised.

 

[johny smith]

We will have to later see about the map. I can not saying anything more till we see the game. I am wanting to have better suggestions on how to split regions of Europe. I am sure we can get plenty of suggestions here on it.

 

[Emperor Bosco I]

The hard part about Europe is that it's such a small area with so many important countries. Britain, France, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands were all very relevant during the same time period and can't really be overlooked. Austro-Hungary, Prussia and Russia were all major players in WWI and also should all be there. Nowhere else are you forced to squeeze so much inside a continental clown car.

In fact, Australia is so unimportant that even if it's lumped with the hundreds of islands around it, you still can't pull an important civ out of it. Maybe we want to leave it empty so more can be RAMmed into Europe?

 

[johny smith]

I need to place some regions in Europe and give uniqueness to the regions slightly. Obviously the Alps I can think of being the biggest geographical barrier.

What about North Europe, South Europe, and East Europe? Does this sound bad for Europe?

North Europe
Mostly Germanic language family areas.

South Europe
Mostly Romance language family areas.

East Europe
Mostly Slavic language family areas.

Finland and the Baltic area I am thinking in the East now. Poland could be in north or east. The Balkans I am thinking in the south. I mean if I use this.

Australia I will have it appear in Oceania later in time. It would be from a European civ then shift into the Oceania region the next era. But for alternate history any of precolonial civilizations could be made as well.

 

[Szpilman]

I think a dose of "generalization" of history should be good for FT. Going with language groups seems like the best compromise.

 

[Emperor Bosco I]

Maybe North, South, East and West where:

North is Scandinavia, Poland and Germany
East is Greece and the Balkans
South is Iberia and Italy
West is Netherlands, France and Britain

with Russia separate.

This way, A WWI-type event is still possible and the colonization is still realistic. For the most part, this West Europe colonized the same areas and the two Iberians were two halves of the same colonial power (sort of).

 

[johny smith]

Maybe North, South, East and West where:

North is Scandinavia, Poland and Germany
East is Greece and the Balkans
South is Iberia and Italy
West is Netherlands, France and Britain

with Russia separate.

This way, A WWI-type event is still possible and the colonization is still realistic. For the most part, this West Europe colonized the same areas and the two Iberians were two halves of the same colonial power (sort of).

That is not a bad idea.

How about change your East to Southeast, and place Russia in an East region?

Other thing though on a WWI scenario where would Austria-Hungary be?

Thanks though. This is not a bad idea at all.