Factoid For Mammoth (Animal) Units

i believe there was a deluge and the historical times before this point are not clearly understood, arounnd eastern europe there are pyramids emerging from nowhere and clay tablets written before those of the sumerians...just a thought :think:
 
So... are you saying that woolly mammoths and building the Pyramids should exist at the same time in Civ?

My understanding was that the last mammoths lived way far up north, far away from most/all human habitation, however. And that if you wanted to go back to when mammoths were relatively common - common enough to represent in-game, at least - you'd have to go back to before the traditional 4000 BC start date in Civ.

Although there is the possibility that scientists might figure out how to bring woolly mammoths back to life someday. There's a fair number of them frozen in Siberia, so it's not even impossible that some degree of genetic diversity could be achieved. It's far from a sure bet, of course. But it's not outside the realm of possibility. There's a Russian wildlife preserve in Siberia where they're hoping they might someday have mammoths to help restore the environment to how it was 8,000 to 10,000 years ago. And scientists did manage to bring a (much-more-recently) extinct type of ibex from the Pyranees back to existence a few years ago, although it wasn't much of a success since it died shortly thereafter.
 
what i,personally, believe is that for some reason, maybe not to be discussed here, the surving evidence of a predilugian world could be true, and also the malefic characteristics of such a world - a huge spontaneous overpopulating process that caused extinction of the most worthy prey animals combined with some super technologized centres across the world - i know it sound stupid - but when you see people unearthing a whole valley paved with cut stone, huge cities and pyramids, as a normal intelectual you might feel tricked by history. since i am working in the construction industry i must keep a survey on the building habbits of special zones, so i am asking people of what they do,how they build, and one tells of a excavator driver trying to to lift some slab cut stones and that his arm almost broke off - and what did you do? i covered it quickly before the archeolgist appear and also quitted my desire of having a decent basement!!!
what else can i say??? it is crazy, last year they found a second group of tablets older than those in sumer, and they were building a highway. archeologists found also settlements ranging from 8000-4500 BC - how i hate this part of history, i never given it attention and now there seems something to have happened than...:dunno:

PS so it was not a smooth switch betwwen hunter-gatherers and settled people, and again the bible tells of God learning people on how to cultivate gardens and to tend animals, at least for pleasure of seeing them - so there might have been a general understanding on disappearing species!?
 
@Good Quintillus - Yes, the very last were Pygmy mammoths (Mammuthus exilis) on Wrangel Island; however, my comment is a bit of a tease, suggesting what I think would be a very interesting, albeit based upon some suppositions:

  • Estimated age of our species, Homo sapiens sapiens, ranges from 100,000 - 200,000 years ago.
  • The last interglacial period before the current one (the Holocene) was the (gads, yes, it's a wretched name) the Eemian, which began about 130,000 years ago and ended about 114,000 years ago.
  • So, turning a blind eye to the cultural H.s.s. "Great Leap Forward" of some 30,000 years ago, it is possible to imagine entire civilizations arising and being literally wiped from the face of the Earth by glaciation and the further passage of another 100,000 years or so.

A map of the Eemian Earth is attached; consider it a gauntlet softly dropped for someone to perhaps pick up and run with ...


:mischief: ,

:Dz
 

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So... are you saying that woolly mammoths and building the Pyramids should exist at the same time in Civ?

My understanding was that the last mammoths lived way far up north, far away from most/all human habitation, however. And that if you wanted to go back to when mammoths were relatively common - common enough to represent in-game, at least - you'd have to go back to before the traditional 4000 BC start date in Civ.

While this is true, in a game of Civ, history pretty much changes every single time. Wonders are not built at the same dates, and if you get scientifically ahead, you can have tanks during what should be the middle ages. :)
 
I've done research for a "Paleolithic" Mod, so might have some insight into this..

Friends, your timelines are far too conservative. One early permanent human settlement, made of rocks and Mammoth bones, dates to 25,000 years ago. One of the oldest known ceramic figures, the Dolni Vestonice, dates to 29,000 years ago, and the earliest use of clay ovens dates to 32,000 years ago. Fitted clothing, made with stone needles, dates to 30,000 years ago. The earliest known cave paintings, made by Cro-magnon men, date to 40,000 years ago, but drawn animal figures were ancient by then, the earliest example dating to 60,000 years ago. The earliest example of compound glue (plant gum & red ochre) dates to 71,000 years ago, and the earliest hide clothing that we've found dates to 77,000 years ago. Neanderthals made plaques and pendents and buried their dead 100,000 years ago. The first known trade over long distances (in precious stones) is dated to 130,000 years ago, and the first shell jewelry to 135,000 years ago. The earliest known symbols and crayons (!) date to 250,000 years ago. The earliest known cooking hearth to 800,000 years ago. The earliest known use of fire dates to 1.5 Million years ago, and the earliest hand axes and symbolic behavior to 1.6 million, the earliest stone tools to 2.5 Million years ago, and the oldest pebble tools (at Gona, Ethiopia) to 2.7 Million years ago. The earliest bipedal humans (Sahelanthropus) walked the earth 6 million years ago.

Because at any point in this six million year old story some human might have written symbols on clay, or paved a european valley, scientists and archaeologists have concentrated on Cultures (i.e. technological advancements spread across wide areas and different sites) to define the advancement of civilization. These have been pegged, in the paleolithic age, mostly to advancements in Stone toolmaking, hence, it is known as "The Stone Age". These eras are known as: The Olowan Industry period - earliest fashioned stone tools (2.5 - 1.7 million years ago); the Acheulean Industry - bi-faced tools (1.7 mya); Clactonian Industry - thrusting spears, notched tools (from 400kya); Mousterian Industry - flint tools (from 300kya); Sangoan Industry - picks, woodworking tools (from 100kya); Aterian Industry - leaf-shaped tools (from 82kya); Gravettian Culture - harpoons, needles, and saws (28k-22k); Jomon Culture, Japan - clay pottery (14.5 kya); and the Natufian Culture - 1st use of wild cereals (13kya).

The Neolithic Age ends the "Stone age" 10,000 years ago with the first cultivation of Wheat and Barley, using "founder crops", and the earliest smelting of lead 6.5kya. The first Walled city, Jericho, is founded 8,000 years ago. The Neolithic Revolution begins 5.5kya with the first irrigated crop fields. At 4.5 thousand years ago, the first actual writing is used, and it is at that point that the "Civilization" game begins.
 
@Good Friend Balthasar - So what do you think about an Eemian mod? (Dreadful name, I know.) I'm determined to actually (for the first time in my 12+ years in these forums!) finish a mod for release (my "7 Years War Global" effort.)

If I actually do so :mischief: the idea of a complete flight of fancy utilizing pretty much every wondrous & over-the-top unit and other graphic I can find within my hoard ...

Think "steampunk" with mammoths and Neanderthals as, "barbarians ..."

-:cool:z
 
Think "steampunk" with mammoths and Neanderthals as, "barbarians ..."

Yikes. I tried that. Add steampunk to prehistoric, and you get (a portion of) Lost Worlds. Blue Monkey has been working on a variation of the same idea with his much more promising "Dark Continent" Mod.

I do like the idea of a Stone Age, or Paleolithic Mod, though. Very do-able, and nearly all of the units needed are already in the data base, though (unsurprisingly) real proto-human units haven't been made yet. I also made a timeline for a 'Civolution' mod, which covers the period from the appearance of Tetrapods to the dawn of man. Big concept, based on a conversation I had once with Supa. I'd be happy to share my research and ideas about either of these.

But that's about all that I could do right now, as Vuldacon & I are deep into creating an Old West Mod.

But about your idea - how about this for a set-up:

The Eemian Rift​

In the year 2332, a scientist named Abi Shinju Riley accidentally opened temporal rifts in locations all over the planet Earth, each lasting for only a moment, and each ending in a fixed point in time - the last time that the earth had occupied that exact point in space, which was in this case smack in the middle of the Eemian Age, during the Paleolithic Era, better known as the Stone Age. Any beings (or buildings) that intersected those rifts over the course of history were instantly dragged back in time to that prehistoric place, and that world suddenly found itself populated by Knights and Pirates and Mongols and Nazis and Musicians and so on, as well as by the mammoths, saber-toothed tigers and Neanderthals that had already been living there, and were quite annoyed by their sudden arrivals. You and your team of scientists and commandos have been sent back to the Eemian age by the Solar Council to fix the problem, and your mission is to either reset the timeline by building a machine that reverses time and closes the rifts, or to conquer or capture enough other displaced peoples to reset the time-line before the paradox affects your own time and erases you from existence. Good Luck commander, the future depends on you!

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The Eemian Rift​

In the year 2332, a scientist named Abi Shinju Riley accidentally opened temporal rifts in locations all over the planet Earth, each lasting for only a moment, and each ending in a fixed point in time - the last time that the earth had occupied that exact point in space, which was in this case smack in the middle of the Eemian Age, during the Paleolithic Era, better known as the Stone Age. Any beings (or buildings) that intersected those rifts over the course of history were instantly dragged back in time to that prehistoric place, and that world suddenly found itself populated by Knights and Pirates and Mongols and Nazis and Musicians and so on, as well as by the mammoths, saber-toothed tigers and Neanderthals that had already been living there, and were quite annoyed by their new planet-mates. You and your team of scientists and commandos have been sent back to the Eemian age by the Solar Council to fix the problem, and your task is to reset the timeline by building a machine that reverses time and closes the rifts, or to conquer or capture enough other displaced peoples to reset the time-line before the paradox affects your own time and erases you from existence. Good Luck commander, the future depends on you!

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WOW! Now that's imagination!

Honestly, what I was simply shooting for was a complete freedom of expectations as to what any particular Civ" should" look like. My steampunk reference wasn't in any way an intention to wander where Braver Souls Than I have already trod; rather simply to posit a coinciding of materials science with steam power winning the race against internal combustion etc. Very different mixes of force styles, letting me, e.g., RUN AMOK WITH SOME IDEAS I'VE BEEN PONDERING FOR A VERY LONG TIME INDEED That with a "recognizable" Earth with some critical differences that might entice the AI to build more sea units in various places. Also "borrowing" names for Civs like Stygians, Cimmerians, and who-knows-what.

... Now, back to best deciding how to deal with implementing skirmishers for the 7 Years War ... :D
 
Also "borrowing" names for Civs like Stygians, Cimmerians
Oh now you made us think of Robert E. Howard :)

Edit: just read the "Extinct Civilization Manifesto" and now I realize I have to re-think my modding :D
I also realized I must have read it once before, when the world was green and I was young... time flies.
 
My apologies for somewhat resurrecting this thread, but I came across an interesting article while looking up information regarding Siberia. It comes from an American Naturalist article from 1909, and discusses the tradition of the mammoth among the natives of Siberia. The article is only 3 pages, and can be found here.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2455455
 
Here's a thought- is it possible using a hex editor to place resources on terrain that does not allow them? If so, you could manually place a resource which is not allowed on any terrain, and with a high disappearance rate it should eventually "go extinct" as there are no valid tiles for it to relocate to.

Already tried that, but the editor, as least the one with the game does not let you. I have not tried Quintullis editor to do that.

Next, given that the natives of the eastern Siberia area had preserved legends of the Mammoth, I am wondering how long ago it really went extinct. I am not sure if a verbal tradition would last for several thousands of years.
 
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