[BNW] How many cities is best for Immortal and large maps?

[Kokutenko]

Hi I play only several times in Civ5 and I started playing with trying create so many cities how is possible when lands over so like as Civ4 playstyle.
But very fast I discover that many cities is bad because I lacking happy faces.
And I was insane happy when I discovery that is possible have very few cities and they grow to very big amount because city radius is 3 hexes.
So my around 10 games was with 3 cities even on Imperator diffculty (but domination playstyle so I unfortunatelly must capture few other capitols but set up them as marionette).
But unfortunatelly my game was to low to do culture win last game was finished in 1720 AD because someone AI do culture win even if I still live and was first or second in military strenght and delete around 4-5 other civs but I lose about this stupid things I barelly have lower than 30 culture per turn in this year but AI won even if I delete 5 civs and he for sure not or maybe kill one.
Science victory the same like in civ4 they fast tech and when I reaserching Bazooka tech they finish all techs and build all spaceship pieces it was not remember sure now but around 1940 AD maybe ? I just started delete few AIs but game is over in 1940.
Why even game set up to finish in 2050 year when never on high difculty take so long because end 1720 AD or 1900 AD. Still not meet diplomacy victory in game.
So I turn off in options cultural and science (spaceship) and diplomatic victories because I even not see flying units because game will over aka cultural victory 1720 AD in my last game and I want play all game not finish at middle age (irony).
I trying more diffcult games and enter in Immortal diffculty and bigger maps so Large (this one before largets possible).
But I realize even if I set up many civs and many CS is just to many lands and some very agressive AI's just have after some conquers at least 12+ cities sometimes 15 or more because they dont care about location and not have shared hexes with other cities, land is land they build cities even on coast with small ground hexes.
So it shows me I think that my 3 big cities 30-40 population are to small to defend when warmongers attack me and I want start conquer some AI. Because biggest AI's have 15 cities so proportionally bigger army than I have and for sure many many more blue scicnce bubbles so they tech faster than I.
I dont know how win on Immortal via culture or spaceship when AI have more cities and better techs so I play only by domination. But I set up large maps to game be more interesting and I need decide how set up number of my cities.
3 Cities is to low because I have usually many happy faces when I play 3 cities so natural thought was if I have to many happy faces I should make more cities and more cities = more happy buildings in this cities etc
I played many years in Civ4 but there more cities = better civilisation and faster win.
But in Civ5 I meet happy faces limits and I loved in 3 big cities playstyle.
But I think 3 cities even biggest possible is to low for large maps and warmongers with 15+ cities. How many cities I should create to have best ballance meaning many population inside and fast tech and many units to win domination.
Playing in Civ5 I became very lazy and playing 3 cities and not want really make many more cities but I think its needed. My last game was with 7 cities but was hard and I not play good and my cities was very low 10 population only in 1760 AD and low tech and problem with many cities is low population = very low building anything. Many times 20-30 turn need to build anything with so pathetic low population in city. I know is my foult I should have better tech with better farms not near rivers, and hospital with 5food more and all time happy facet to allow cities grow faster but on immortal I was to focused to survive and building military units.

So problem is I should play better with my 7 cities or I should create many less cities to have them bigger and better because bigger have faster production anything incuding units.

So how many cities number people prefer to play on large maps and high game diffculty? 3 is to small I think but 7 I not play to good to grow them big or maybe I stop to early because in 1760 AD but I lose game because AI's was to strong and attack me with better techs units so I give up and I will start again with other set up. AI's have Rifflemens and infantry 50 power but I have only Gatlings And Arkebuzers but no have money to upgrade my units so anyway game is lose.

 

[martindo]

I think you would get better advice if you make shorter posts and focus some of them on one screenshot from a game.

I usually play King level, about a dozen cities is comfortable (including some I conquered). Most AI are programmed to have 3 cities and not expand more until late in the game. More cities = more units can be built if you're attacked.

If AI seem too strong, Delete 1 as Advanced Option for setup of Standard map, 1 or 2 for Large map, 2 for Huge map. That gives you more space to develop with less chance of aggressive AI nearby.

Hospital is not worthwhile unless your city is low on food options, crawling along with only a couple extra food accumulating per turn.

Many options to improve happiness. Religious Belief, Social Policies, wonders like Notre Dame or Neuschwanstein.

 

[mbbcam]

@Kokutenko Let me offer some advice. I've been playing Civ5 since 2013 -- ten years -- and I always play on Deity level. I'm not a good player, but I find Immortal a little too easy, and I like the extra challenge of Deity. I don't often win, but when I do it is very satisfying.

I think if you want to learn to play Civ5 you will have to "unlearn" a lot about Civ4 (I also played it, and it is very different). I think the best way to learn is to play on a Standard size map, Standard speed, with standard settings (though I also like to play using Strategic balance). The game seems to have been designed for Standard size and speed so there are fewer "quirks" in the game with those settings. On a Standard map there is more competition for space, so the expansive Civs are less likely to be able to build lots of cities, and it is more likely that they will be attacked by other Civs if they do.

Regarding maps, I find the map scripts that come with the game to be pretty terrible, so I normally use the HellBlazers map script:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KiFTUkF8zxbRdN_AmQ-jIwdUAjnriO2wYNGBuqphcCM/edit#

This gives a more balanced map with better distribution of resources, and is generally nicer to play.

The number of cities that you build may depend on whether you decide to go Tradition, Liberty, or Honor for your social policies. Tradition is usually seen as the "safest" option, and the usual advice is to build three cities minimum, four cities is better, and five cities if you can. Never build cities of your own after Turn 100 as they do not have time to grow to a useful size. If you go Tradition, you should use internal trade routes to send food to your capital to help it grow fast. There is a guide here on the early part of the game which I find very solid, though I don't really use it myself:

Liberty is probably a better option if you are going for a Domination victory. It is not the easy option, but if you want to try it, have a look at Moriarte's guide:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/liberty-domination-walkthrough.503931/

It allows you to build an army fast and go to war from about Turn 80-90 (or even earlier if you are lucky).

Lastly, diplomacy and City States are probably more important than a lot of us think. Bribing AIs to fight each other can be crucial to survival, and gettiing alliances with City States is hugely beneficial. And on the subject of diplomacy, I find it very useful to play with the EUI mod installed:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/enhanced-user-interface.512263/

And I also use Enhanced Demographics:

https://www.picknmixmods.com/mods/CivV/UI/Enhanced Demographics.html

It is very important to keep an eye on what the other Civs are doing! Some of them are deceptive, and will go from being friendly to attacking you from one turn to the next. Dido is the arch backstabber, and you can guarantee that she will always betray you at some point. Montezuma will always build millions of cities all over the map, even on single tile islands -- and will still grow them to great size. The Egyptians will build every wonder they can, while other Civs will spread religion like crazy. *You need to know your enemies!* The way you play will depend to some extent on your opponents. If you find that Assyria, the Huns or the Zulus are your immediate neighbours, build an army as quickly as possible! They will attack you and they are difficult to stop.

I hope this is some help.

 

[lerrocco]

I haven't played much civ 5 yet, but it's the only version on my laptop. I played civ 4 since its release until this year, and latterly only for domination victories.

I still haven't played civ 5 past the industrial era!

However, I can win most games on Immortal with domination, which is what you say you are playing for too. My only strategy is to build one city and capture my third. I have scouted the land and build my second city towards my first target, allowing roads between the first 3 cities.

The captured city is probably a capital and it usually has 2 luxury resources that I dont have. This solves the happiness. If you have to capture non capital cities you will have to raze them, to keep happy. If you have a choice of cities to capture, go for the luxuries you need.

Unless you have the Huns then it is not realistic to capture a city before composite bows. I play Honor (but sometimes you need parts of Liberty). Build my cities, build my archers and upgrade to comp bows and go to War. One capital after the other. Happiness can be dealt with. After 2 or 3 cities you will have to wait to upgrade to crossbows, and they are game changing, easy to win.

Trade as much as you can before you get the warmonger reputation, but even then, my furthest (last) target is usually open to trade for much of the game. Domination is much easier on slow game speeds, as you can move your army across the map before the units become obsolete.

It is also possible to play with big unhappiness, this isn't like civ 4, the unhappiness penalties can be dealt with if you already have a big enough standing army. You really need the happiness to build the army though.

 

[mbbcam]

easy to win

That is pretty much what I felt the last time I played Immortal (which was some time ago). I find that Deity is a different challenge. With Immortal it seemed to me that I could play rather sloppily and make mistakes and it didn't matter too much. With Deity I find I need to be much more efficient -- and I still can't win most of the time ... though it is true that I don't usually opt for the "safe" strategies (e.g. taking Tradition) because I find that a bit boring. I keep on trying to get peddroelm's Honor-Commerce-Autocracy strategy to work, but it is not easy to pull it off.

 

[lerrocco]

I agree. Deity is quite different. On Immortal I have occasionally (by chance) taken an opponents capital for my second city! That doesn't happen on Deity. On Deity I have switched between building 2 and 3 cities at start up, as the AI have such a better start, and 2-3 cities, before you attack them. On Immortal to capture the early cities is usually enough, on Deity you have to capture them and defend them.

Even with my limited civ 5 experience I would say I can win with domination playing all civs on Immortal, whereas on Deity I need to play the warmongers for victory, and even then it is not certain. I have never survived a deity game next to the Zulus.

Once the war machine is rolling I usually win by the time I have completed the Honor tree, and don't need the Commerce-Autocracy, but I play on slow mode and never on large maps, which helps. It is a much harder game with bigger maps and more AI. The slow play is a crutch, as your units don't become obsolete so quickly and the AI don't race ahead on tech. You only need to research crossbows for the win.

But on Immortal the 2 city rush in Honor is fairly easy, and a good way to learn the game mechanics for the harder settings.

In civ 4 i ended up playing for Domination victories as they were more fun, I was getting bored of the other victories. In Civ 5 I have only played for domination, but have enjoyed the game more than I thought I would, (I was happy in civ 4, but its a pain on linux) and may start playing for science and other victories, if I can find the time.

 

[martindo]

Never build cities of your own after Turn 100 as they do not have time to grow to a useful size.

I disagree with this part of mbbcam's initial reply to OP, which I liked for other reasons. OP mentions Emperor in the post along with the Immortal title of the thread, so I'll discuss my experience at that level. It depends on what you consider "useful size" -- leaving aside the topic of founding a city within defensible distance that has strategic resources like oil or aluminum.

I try to found in "waves" of 2 or 3 at a time in order to bring new ones up to speed for national wonders. Generally, I avoid founding after turn 400 -- but of course that won't make sense to you aces who regularly win before turn 300.

Factories are pretty much meaningless after turn 400 -- the turns spent bulding one to get the production bonus would have more impact if the hammers were devoted to infrastructure that you intended anyway.

Founded after 300 can easily surpass size 20, even w/o internal trade "feeding" food from a large city into a new one.

 

[lerrocco]

I try to found in "waves" of 2 or 3 at a time in order to bring new ones up to speed for national wonders. Generally, I avoid founding after turn 400 -- but of course that won't make sense to you aces who regularly win before turn 300.

I only commented above at the mention of domination victories, which are all I know in my limited play time. For the domination victory 2 cities is enough, 3 max, the rest are captured. Just build an army (after the scouts and settler and maybe a granary (but not always!)..). Go to war. No hesitating, one capital after the other, speed is important. Its surprisingly easy (I am no expert, so it must be ) the Hun Domination guide in this strategy sub forum is a good description of the general strategy. It is a great way to learn the game for beginners. I have only played on small maps and pangeas, stacked the odds in my favour. The game is usually won before turn 200. Its easy on Immortal, trickier on Deity. As mbbcam points out, you need to maximize the strategy on Deity, (maximum benefits from generals and promotions, for eg).

I havent yet played on large maps or for any other victory in civ 5. I enjoy the short domination games and they fit better to my life schedules.

 

[martindo]

I only commented above at the mention of domination victories, which are all I know in my limited play time. For the domination victory 2 cities is enough, 3 max, the rest are captured. Just build an army (after the scouts and settler and maybe a granary (but not always!)..). Go to war. No hesitating, one capital after the other, speed is important. Its surprisingly easy (I am no expert, so it must be ) the Hun Domination guide in this strategy sub forum is a good description of the general strategy. It is a great way to learn the game for beginners. I have only played on small maps and pangeas, stacked the odds in my favour. The game is usually won before turn 200. Its easy on Immortal, trickier on Deity. As mbbcam points out, you need to maximize the strategy on Deity, (maximum benefits from generals and promotions, for eg).

I havent yet played on large maps or for any other victory in civ 5. I enjoy the short domination games and they fit better to my life schedules.

So there is less happiness penalty for holding all those capitals before Ideology is available? Even puppeting has a penalty, as does razing (the non-capital cities).

 

[lerrocco]

So there is less happiness penalty for holding all those capitals before Ideology is available? Even puppeting has a penalty, as does razing (the non-capital cities).

I have never reached ideology, so I don't know. I guess not. The luxuries are often well distributed between different civs, usually a capital will have 2 luxuries you don't, thats +8 happiness.

With generals I often build citadels to grab on luxuries i need in other territories, without capturing the adjacent city.
Captured cities provide faith, pagodas are needed late game. Notre Dame is handy. CS need to be worked effectively, and these can be manipulated to long term allies, providing more luxuries.

I never create puppets, I nearly always raze non capitals, even if i hold onto them for a few turns for strategic purposes.

Early and mid game is usually easy and happiness solutions have to be found late game. The unhappiness penalties can almost be ignored in the end game, as long as the army is big enough to secure the last capital for victory.

There will come a map size where this is no longer so easy, in which case I would target the science and culture civs to stop them winning before me.

A bigger map again will probably see your crossbow army taken out by stealth fighters, so a different strategy or a change of tack would be required. I havent got that far yet. My last 2 deity games on small maps at standard speed, I won before turn 150. The 2 games before that the zulus wiped me out early game...

 

[lerrocco]

I do build courthouses in the capitals, for the happiness- it is even nicer to buy them, but I am often poor. I dont build much else apart from troops, the odd wonder as the game allows. I don't really build barracks, except to play with some promotions. I try to keep my initial army alive and picking up the promotions. Its a small part of civ 5, a very narrow way of playing, but I quite like the warmonger strategy game.

 

[martindo]

I guess we have different notions of "late game" LOL. If you're winning by turn 200, then I suppose 150 is "late"!

For me, I build the pagodas as soon as I get nearly all of my cities converted. Religious Texts as Enhancer Belief helps spread without spending Faith. Generally build the pagodas first in outlying cities, then the religious pressure moves inward to spread without any missionary. Connecting with roads helps, too.

Game length also affects strategy for "planting" science-track Great Persons (merchant, scientist, engineer). I plant a Scientist if the turn is less than 250, sometimes as late as 300. It's a simple calculation: # turns you expect before a win x per-turn science bonus from Academy versus lump sum science advance taken immediately.

 

[consentient]

The best answer to the original question is: as many as possible (though it depends on the terrain)

If there are room for 8 cities and you can have the economy to defend it with bribes and units, then that will be better than settling for 3 and allowing the AI to make use of that land.

For an improving player, the classic 4-city Tradition guide that is still floating around here somewhere, is still as relevant as the day it was written.

Can't remember who wrote the Tradition guide, but there was certainly a great one on Liberty done by Acken, and another, focused on CB rush, by Moriarte

 

[martindo]

OP also mentioned AI cities "sharing hexes" -- some AI will prefer building at minimum distance of 4 tiles (which obviously accelerates contiguous territory boundary, increasing the effectiveness of No open borders to block opponent movement/settling). There is also an advantage to that tactic late in the game because they can protect two cities with one anti-aircraft unit.

I try to build at separation of 6 or 7 tiles, even 8 if strategic and the wasted tiles are mountains or desert (which might be glommed by border expansion anyway by the time oil is discovered).

I mentioned in another thread that I discovered an AI city only 3 tiles from another city. Aspyr Customer Service told me that was allowed if the two cities are on separate continents/islands. Yet another example of a rule encoded but not expressed in Civilpedia.

 

[mbbcam]

Can't remember who wrote the Tradition guide

I think you probably mean the one by @Tabarnak: https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/tradition-three-cities-approaches-bnw.25617/

Good to see you posting here again!

 

[martindo]

That's a helpful guide, but it seems to rely on a decade-old mod that changes the original Tradition policy tree. True?

Also, I find NON-hill tiles better for founding because in the long run, I can build a Windmill to get hammer multipliers later.

Hill on a river is great if I think defense is a serious concern. Water Mill comes sooner than Windmill, but no specialist slot.

 

[mbbcam]

it seems to rely on a decade-old mod

No, the tree was changed in the base game by the developers, at some time. Can't remember when. This guide must have been made after that change.

Correction: the guide was originally written before the patch, but refers to it at the beginning. The patch doesn't change the validity of the guide.

 

[martindo]

No, the tree was changed in the base game by the developers, at some time. Can't remember when. This guide must have been made after that change.

Correction: the guide was originally written before the patch, but refers to it at the beginning. The patch doesn't change the validity of the guide.

Very strange. I play Vanilla downloaded as app via key from Aspyr (Apple Store, but Google Play would be similar I think). I do not see *any* policy trees that have 3 squares at the top funneling down in the pattern shown in the Guide's image of Tradition.

I quit Steam about 6 years ago and don't recall seeing such a pattern there in 2017. But my memory of that could be wrong.

 

[martindo]

BTW, I just gave a like to your initial post on the old thread about games played lower than Immortal level. I think it's a great idea to point out advantages and disadvantages based on higher level play experience, as a teaching tool.

Going back to OP here, if I separate the Venn of the title into Large map OR Immortal level, then I'd offer my experience at mid levels. I typically settle 8-12 cities on a Standard map, but 15 or more on Large. Huge is a very long game, fraught with frustrating competitions for Wonders (which several of us playing at Emperor or King still crave). I avoid it unless I want a different type of challenge that fills more than a weekend.

As I said in my first response to the OP, I typically eliminate an AI slot when playing on Large, and two slots when playing on Huge. That provides more lebensraum, which is something @consentient hinted at.

 

[consentient]

Reducing the number of AIs in order to make space is a terrible idea. All of your metrics would be lower. There is ample opportunity on almost any map (assuming the use of Hellblazer) to found enough cities and defend them. But if the AIs are too far away, then all victory conditions become harder, unless you are playing on like Chieftain with Barbarians turned off and just turtling to T400