failed at tech brokering - what went wrong?

[satchel]

I'm playing my first Monarch game. I'm trying to cope with being slightly behind, what I imagine is a common occurrence for folks who have just stepped up the level of play. I'm Persia on a huge map with continents and only 7 civs.

I didn't win the race to build the Great Library but I took it from the Russians. Now, Egypt is the world leader. I am second in points but only 4th or so in technology. After I took the Library I turned off research until I got Education. Then I tried to resume research, but I quickly found there was no way to keep up. So, as a late middle ages republic, I have turned research back down and started racking up gold to buy techs. The trouble is, nobody is selling. Egypt, Russia, and Germany are obviously all trading with eachother but none of them will sell to me. What did I do wrong? Did my reputation get damaged somewhere along the line? I fought an early war with Russia but that's it.

I'm having trouble trading luxuries too, though I have a surplus of Gems and Dyes. Egypt doesn't need them, I guess; the "luxury" option doesn't even show up on the trade screen. Russia won't give me anything for them, and Germany, on a different continent, isn't connected to me. The other civs don't have anything to offer. (Which raises another question, even if I could buy techs there's really no one to sell them to.)

I know this game is basically hopeless, now; I can play it out to a slow death at the hands of Egypt but I'd like to know what I did wrong so I can improve next time.

I also hear of people selling RoP - I have never made this work, in any game; when I offer up RoP the other civ acts like I am asking them for a huge favor and wants an exorbitant price, even if I am standing in between them and someone they are at war with. What can you do with that? If you repeatedly ask them to leave they get angry at you, so they effectively have free RoP.

 

[morkaphi]

I have similar situations in my current emperor game. The only difference may be, I'm wayyyyyyyyy behind in tech, by a dozen or so, heading into the modern age. Since it's already hopeless to do my own research, I put my research at 10%, just wanting to get things moving.

Dear Joan ruined my rep by dragging everyone into a world war, so I can no longer pay gpt/luxuries for anything. All the other civs price their techs at 3,500-4,000 gold each, and I can't afford more than 2 of them. So I turned to the good old arti-infantry-cavs combination (I didn't even have tank) and kicked Gandhi's mech-infantry like dirt. Well, after losing 5-6 cities, Gandhi was still not willing to sue for peace for a single tech.

I'm playing patch 1.29, which makes techs seem way more expensive than fair, even though I'm the only player who doesn't have the outdated and dead-end techs, such as Amphibious Warfare.

Domination seems to be my only winning option now... The AI can keep all the techs and burn in hell.

 

[billindenver]

Being behind in tech on Monarchy is the norm, even for people who have played it many times. I occasionally catch up early, get behind in Middle Ages, etc. Only in my very best games have I been able to stay ahead in the Modern Era.

I doubt that your war on Russia is the problem, unless you were really nasty during that (ROP-rapes, constantly breaking peace treaties, destroying lots of cities, etc).

My first suggestion is to turn off all science and luxury spending temporarily, and seeing if they will sell to you then. Civs won't trade anything on gpt deals if you don't have enough gpt showing. Lower both sliders to zero, then see if you get any takers. My guess is you will, although you might not like the prices. Just don't forget to reset the sliders after you check around for trades.

I have never been successful selling ROP's. I've seen others talk about it so it is certainly possible, but I just haven't gotten it to work.

I'd offer several suggestions if changing the sliders doesn't work. The first would be to establish embassies with everyone. I know you have at least some established, otherwise you couldn't sell ROP's. Make sure you have them with everyone. Second, sell something to everyone, even if it's just your world map for their territory map or for 1 gold. Any trade helps attitude at least a tiny bit. Third, go ahead and sell a luxury to Russia, even if they are only offering crap. It's better than nothing, and it helps establish your 'trade-worthiness'.

Fourth, make sure you have a least one harbor built, since that's the only way to trade with overseas countries. Fifth, research banking and democracy, build banks, and change to Democracy. Not only will you research faster, but you'll have more gold to offer in trades. Sixth, encourage the top civs to go to war against each other. When at war, their research slows to a crawl. If the civs are on different continents, you could consider giving away one of your really crappy cities on the border to get them in contact.

I wouldn't give up on the game, personally. I'm not sure why the luxury thing wouldn't show up in the trade screen with Egypt. If it shows up, but the items are greyed out, it means they aren't connected by road or they have no harbor. If the luxury thing doesn't show up at all, I'm not sure what that means. Is it possible they have a trade embargo against you?

One last thing you might try is renegotiating peace treaties. Don't do that with anyone close to you or more powerful. If there is a tiny civ far away that has something you want, give it a shot. Just pull up your existing agreements, click on peace treaty, ignore the advisor, and see if you can bully the tech from them. If they refuse, you are at war with a tiny civs 1/2 way around the world, so who cares. If that happens, get a military alliance (those are usually very cheap). The military alliance will immediately turn any civ from annoyed to polite or better.

 

[Grey Fox]

Try to always be the last one to buy a tech, that keeps the price down.

 

[morkaphi]

Originally posted by Grey Fox
Try to always be the last one to buy a tech, that keeps the price down.

That is my problem, the price doesn't come down...

 

[morkaphi]

Correction: the price did come down somewhat, the cheapest one dropped from 3,800 gold to 3,100 gold...

 

[Riddil]

For me, falling behind in tech is simply not an option, even at Monarch level. There's a really difficult forumla to be able to stay competitive...

Early on, crank out some units FAST to do some scouting. The more free techs you get from huts early on are a life-saver down the road.

Only trade away techs when you stand to profit off the other civs. Many people shell out all techs to everyone under the reasoning, "the computer will get them anyhow"... if someone is broke, leave them broke. If they can only offer a world map and 10 gold... take a hike. They'll eventually start to lag more and more behind.

Make sure you stay in control... if someone else gets a tech first, trade out the nose to get it, then sell it off to everyone else for a profit. If they are asking WAY too much and you can't recover your investment, don't buy it yet. Let them trade it around to lower the value, and wait until you finish another tech or two, and then trade for it.

Early on try to find techs that you don't think the computer will research. It's a collosal waste to spend 12 out of 16 turns researching mapmaking, only to see everyone else pop up with it. Focus on the side techs. Try not to trade right away. If you sell too soon you won't get as nice a trade. Also, it lets the computer waste turns researching a tech that you're about to sell them. 10 turns of wasted tech research mean 10 turns longer until their next tech can begin research.

Ok, that should get you through the early stages... now comes the TOUGH one... as soon as you hit medieval the computer will quickly start to pull away (unless you have a BIG lead from the early age)

If you're scientific it's your chance to catch up or pull a little bit ahead b/c of the free tech. Hold onto it until you can trade it for another tech.

the computer likes starting on monotheism first, so typically I'll go for feudalism and maaaybe even engineering. This is the first point when you'll see some civs really start falling behind... let them, don't trade with them. When you get your tech, you should be able to trade it out to really help you catch up in the research.

And the next thing... this is MANDATORY... get yourself in a golden age pronto. Obviously Russia, America, Germany, etc are left out, but with most races you should be able to do it. Find a neighbor and declare war... if you want to play the politic game, find someone else in a war, and offer to team up with them. Run out a few of your civ's special units (eg, impi for zulu) and get them in an easy to win battle to trigger the GA.

Whether or not you actually carry on the war, or just get in a quick battle and back off and sit safely behind your borders is immaterial.. you just want the golden age for the cash and research. Typically I research in this order:

(if I'm ahead):
Mono -> Theo (for cistine) -> feud (for sun tzu) -> education -> (kill G.Lib) -> Chivalry -> (trigger golden age) -> Engineering -----> all the way down the line to gunpowder, on to calvary.

If you're a bit behind, just research what you need to so that you can trade to catch up.

If you're FAR ahead at this point, you can take a few turns to pick up banking, etc to help build your nation in the golden age. Its the PERFECT chance to build those costly universities and banks.

The point is, get the golden age!! With it you can quickly and easily pull ahead. Without, if you're solid you may be able to keep up... but odds are you'll start to fall behind.

When you trigger, if you plan to fight out your war, build about 6-8 knights, then start switching 2-4 of your biggest production cities to universities. This helps accel research, all the way through the golden age, and later lets you crank out knights non-stop. when they roll to knight production, slowly start switching your other towns to univ's also.

It's also nice if you can stick with republic all the way through your golden age. The key to keeping your people from rioting isn't to be winning by too much... if you just get into a way, then just sit along the border and defend you can drag the war out a LONG time. If you wipe out his army quickly and start burning towns, you'll quickly get pressure. Go slow, pace yourself, and don't get too much of a lead, and you should be able to stick with the republic higher research rate all the way through.

Conversely, if you kill them QUICKLY your citizens won't have a chance to get unmanageable. Take whichever course fits your taste.

Also, DO NOT get dragged into a war earlier. Getting a golden age early in the game is nothing but a waste. You don't have the production to make it worthwhile. (You also waste time building military when you should be building libraries and marketplaces)

To make sure you stay out of war keep a decent standing army. A good rule of thumb is about 2 spearmen per city should keep people from declaring war on you.

Oh, and I bow to the AI demands for goods 90% of the time. If someone is behind in tech and demands one, or if they want my world map and gold, I'll give it up if it means staying out of a war.

You play your golden age right, and you'll be easily able to stay par with the AI.

(oh, and by focusing your efforts to rush toward cavalry, it should let you carve up a neighbor or two... expand territy as much as you can). The more for you, the less there is for them. Even if they become a corruption cesspool.. at least they're not producing for someone else.

 

[Ribannah]

Chances are that you are building too many units instead of city improvements. There is no compelling reason why you shouldn't be #1 in research on Monarch level.
Or, if you are building a huge army, use it.

But, in case of need, forget about unnecessary techs like Amphibious Warfare and keep on the main path.

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Chances are that you are building too many units instead of city improvements. There is no compelling reason why you shouldn't be #1 in research on Monarch level.

Well, if that's the case, then I'm obviously doing something wrong in almost every game, and I sure as heck don't know what it is. By 1500 AD, I usually have 15-20 cities(standad map), I don't have a large military (generally 2-3 units/city), all my tiles are developed, I don't have a lot of corruption, I have libraries/universities/banks in every city, I get to Republic/Democracy ASAP, and keep research spending as high as possible, but I still am invariably behind in tech until very late in the game, if I even catch up then.

Of course, there are variables. Being scientific helps (cheaper libs/univs, extra techs), building the GL helps, staying peaceful helps (you can stay in republic/democracy and are more likely to get trades), building Collosus, Copernicus, Newtons, SETI in a city obviously helps.

I just don't see how you can categorically state that it shouldn't be a problem staying ahead at Monarch. Most threads about it that I've read here say just the opposite.

 

[Riddil]

It's opposite only from the point of view that it takes a plan and real effort to be able to stay ahead. In any of the lower diff's it just happens as a matter of the course.

Somethings to stay ahead: Don't research useless techs. Always play with the slider to maximzie turns/gold. Don't waste time building useless wonders... Great wall, etc.

And the #1... optimize your workers. Don't just crank out workers and automate them. Move with a plan. Never waste a single move with a single worker.

Did you know that in despotism, irrigating a grassland gives you NO BENEFIT. This means: don't waste any turns irrigating grassland until you switch to Republic or Monarchy. Spend them on other tasks. Build an infrastructure. The faster you get your cities connected, the faster your settlers can move to get those cities down in the early settlment scramble.

Run for the gold!! Haul ass for gold, and then keep a close eye on your cities to make sure they keep using the gold. Especially early on, it's an enormous boon to research.

Basically... it's not hard, if you have a plan and you know how to execute it.

Oh.. and another one... rush for the rivers too. Not only do they free you from an aquaduct, the tiles next to rivers produce an extra commerce. Develop those tiles first.

 

[morkaphi]

Originally posted by billindenver
I just don't see how you can categorically state that it shouldn't be a problem staying ahead at Monarch. Most threads about it that I've read here say just the opposite.

I am no expert at this game, and as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I struggle all the way at the emperor level. At monarch, my experience is that, without GL, the best I can do is not to fall way behind in the early game. I try to grab gold and buy techs as long as I can afford them. If lucky enough, things can turn around early in the Industrial Age. I usually beeline to Scientific Method, build Theory of Revolution, get Atomic Theory + Electronics and build Hoover Dam, then I'm ready to run the table. Since AI usually doesn't focus on this path, I can even sell these techs at a premium, while buying other techs such as Steel and Replaceable Parts from AI.

Staying ahead all the way at monarch? Not me.

 

[morkaphi]

How come Riddil's posts look contradictory to me...

Stay ahead in techs while grabbing gold like crazy? At higher levels, you can't have the cake and eat it too.

 

[Riddil]

Nono, I didn't say keep all the gold. If you have 8 other civs in the game, you can normally gear it so that 6 are broke, and 2 will have lots of cash.

The best you can hope for is a balance... I typically get to around 200-300 all the way up until my GA hits. Once my GA hits, I have univ's in all my towns, MUCH faster than the AI does, so I can keep a balance in research and cash income to stay ahead of the AI on both counts.

You never get rich... but you can get a little bit of cash flow.

edit:

Oh wait, now I see what you're saying. Typically on the first tech I'll research it at a very slow pace, and be able to pocket about 200-300 gold or so. After then you max research out so you're breaking even, but hopefully pulling in +1 or 2 a turn. With that early stash, and the early tech rush you got from rushing out hut-finding units, you are able to keep a decent flow of income from your trading of techs. Sometimes you have to pay heavily to get a tech, but you recoup the costs from trading it out again, or from selling another tech.

If you ever get into a situation where you can't afford a tech, or it breaks the bank, you don't trade. You wait for the GA to hit right at the start of medieval times to push you bak in the lead.

 

[morkaphi]

I guess that's the playing style thingy... 200-300 gold in the vault doesn't make me feel comfortable though.

Gotta cross my fingers and hope that my dear AI friends don't pick on me for whatever reason.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Things like that depend on the playing style a lot - so i can just say what I do....

I tend to start research and brokering a tad later then you - around Steam Power. Then, prices go up so high you can bancrupt AIs - so i make sure I run up enough money, then research at neckbreaking speed. A deficit of 300 Gold per turn is not uncommon - after all i usually sell Steam Power for some 400 per turn AND leftover tech. Also, extorting techs helps

 

[Mathias]

Riddil has made some very good points. If you have a good plan of action, you should be able to keep up in tech, and lead by the end of the middle ages. His comment about Map Making is all too true. After you have Writing, go for Literature and build libraries the GL. Then get Philosophy or Polytheism to trade for Map Making.

After you build the GL, either set your sience to 0, or look for a new gov. In middle ages, you should research Engineering first, then Chivalry, Invention, Gunpowder while you get the other techs from the GL. You should have at least a 1-tech lead when you get Education. Get Astronomy then go for Theory of Gravity. You should be able to trade Chemistry and Physics for other techs and lots of gold.

Riddil also makes a very good point about the Golden Age. It is most useful about halfway through the middle ages. Know your civ's traits and know what wonders will trigger your GA. For Germany, build Great Library and Sun Tzu's. For Russia, Library and Lighthouse or Colossus will do the trick. America can build the Colossus or Lighthouse and Pyramids, Gardens, or Great Wall if you have to.

billindenver mentioned 15 to 20 cities by 1500 AD. This is not enough, or at least not soon enough. You should not stop expanding or fighting for territory until you have at least 20 cities. And fill in those bits of 'worthless' territory to prevent the AI from trying to move in later.

If you want to keep your reputation intact, you have to be careful with your actions. Never declare war when any of your troups are within your enemy's territory. This is seen as RoP abuse, even if you didn't have RoP. Do not raze cities - capture them, starve them, then build settlers to abandon them.

As for selling RoP, it really helps to have a larger territory than your partner in the deal, and you certainly need to be trustworthy.

 

[Moonsinger]

Have you considered building more cities? If you ask your advisor, that would be exactly what he/she may say. A typical city may take up to 21 tiles. This is really a waste of space. Unless you can build the hospital, your city would never be able to use all 21 tiles anyway. On the other hand, instead of building just 1 city, we are going to build 3 cities on the same piece of land. Each city would have about 6 tiles for food which is good enough to support upto size 12 with railroad. Now our little empire is going to have the same culture boundary without having to build any culture improvement. No improvement -> no upkeep -> more gold income. Instead of having just 1 city, we now have 3 cities which mean we can generate at least 3 times more golds for the same piece of land.

PS: When the time is right, we can eliminate those cities by having them to produce the 'settler flood'.

 

[satchel]

Thanks for all the great replies so far, everyone. I cannot wait to get home and play.

Billindenver - as I read through your list of suggestions, I kept thinking - "yep, did that. mmhmm, did that too." But I haven't tried everything on your list so I am not going to give up yet. I also have a problem with picking a strategy and sticking to it - I get impatient, and I have to fight that impulse to keep switching tactics.

It's also good to know that being behind in the middle ages is not a death warrant. I thought my infrastructure was pretty good - I have or am building the cultural and commercial improvements in my core cities, and I have two good cores around my FP and palace. I have a decent military force of immortals, knights, and pikes, and as I said I am second in the histograph so I must be doing something right.

I'll keep plying my potential trade partners with small trades and gifts to make them like me.

Moonsinger - one of the pledges I made with myself when I started this game was to place my cities closer together. I always used something close to OCP in my lower-level games, an up-four-over-two kind of pattern. This game I made myself place my cities closer together because I was worried about expanding quickly. I haven't managed to get to the extreme ICS that you have outlined in your post. Perhaps in my next game I will try this. Do you recommend this for the core around the FP and palace, too, or mainly in the outlying areas where production is hampered by corruption?

 

[satchel]

Originally posted by Mathias
If you want to keep your reputation intact, you have to be careful with your actions. Never declare war when any of your troups are within your enemy's territory. This is seen as RoP abuse, even if you didn't have RoP. Do not raze cities - capture them, starve them, then build settlers to abandon them.

As for selling RoP, it really helps to have a larger territory than your partner in the deal, and you certainly need to be trustworthy.

These are really good points that I will have to try to keep in mind. I don't think I fully appreciated that you can be guilty of RoP rape without even having RoP. I have to be careful about where my units are when I declare war. I also occasionally raze cities but I try not to do it too much for the reason you state. A reputation is a very fragile thing and crucial for keeping up by trade.

As for having a larger territory, this is obviously a challenge, especially at higher levels. The AI expands like mad. I am encumbered with many tiny, unproductive cities in crappy terrain just because I didn't want to cede the territory to the AI. But I missed my chance to grab an unpopulated peninsula nearby because I was distracted fighting a war.

 

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by billindenver Well, if that's the case, then I'm obviously doing something wrong in almost every game, and I sure as heck don't know what it is. By 1500 AD, I usually have 15-20 cities(standad map), I don't have a large military (generally 2-3 units/city), all my tiles are developed, I don't have a lot of corruption, I have libraries/universities/banks in every city, I get to Republic/Democracy ASAP, and keep research spending as high as possible, but I still am invariably behind in tech until very late in the game, if I even catch up then.

Here are a few pointers.

[1] At Monarch level you can stay ahead in research with only a single well-placed city, but if you want to run a good-sized empire, courthouses are a first priority (before libraries except when you have to fight for culture in a border town), and make sure to start early on your Forbidden Palace, too.
[2] 2-3 military units per city is far too many if you want to play peaceful. I have played and won peaceful games with no military units at all (after the barbs had gone). If you want to wage war, however, it's too few.
[3] Use diplomacy. It's one of the keys to master this game. I don't end a turn before I've checked with all rivals to see if there is a favourable trade to make. And if you know the preferences of your rivals, you know what they will research. Often it is very profitable to pick a path they won't choose.