Fall Further 050 Balance Issues

[Vehem]

But, what I found was that nearly 80% of the explorations (including those with hero/courage/adventurer promotions) resulted in getting units coming out of the lair at you.

And, of those about 75% were Orc warriors.

Shouldn't be quite 75%, but there are a few more than there should be... The "default" result if nothing else is applicable (ever since the Goodies have to be validated by the unit that receives it) is to spawn either Orcs, a Bear or a Skeleton. The first result (Orcs) applies unless the explorer is Barb-friendly.

The "Monster" result (which is always some type of Monster, 30% chance of Orcs if not Barb Friendly) only accounts for 10% of the main list. However, CivSpecific, AlignmentSpecific and Religion specific all account for 25% in total and all of them quite often drop through to the default case (Orcs).

CivSpecific - 50% chance to get a unique result if Elohim, otherwise Orcs.
AlignmentSpecific - Special result if Good or Evil, Orcs if neutral.
ReligionSpecific - Currently no special results - Orcs for everyone!

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Whilst it's possible to tweak these percentages and alter the way the defaults work, it'd be better to fill out the results lists a little more. I think that may call for a new thread if anyone is feeling inspired...

I was also looking at goody huts and the rare graveyards, and those results were more varied, although I saw two things that stood out:

Those work on an entirely different list of results, so there shouldn't be any correlation between Lairs and Goodies, Lairs and Graveyards or even Tribal Villages and Graveyards.


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Regarding the "NoBadResults" for adventurer/courage/hero...

Adventurer: 25
Courage: 10
Hero: 25

The effects are...

• Number of Henchmen reduced by 10% of "NoBad" total for Boss results (2 less for Adventurers, 5 less for Hero-Adventurers etc)
• Percentile result boosted by half of the "NoBad" total (+5% for Courage etc) on the main list, exploreLairBad, exploreLairNeutral, exploreLairGood, exploreLairBigGood, MarnokDungeoneerBigGood, receiveDungeonMagicItem - low results are generally worse
• Percentile result boosted by full value of "NoBad" total for MarnokDungeoneerBadRandom, MarnokDungeoneerMinerals

If you want to do a test to determine if the NoBad results are working correctly, the easiest way is to throw a whole lot of "Adventurer" units into dungeons and see if any receive the "MYSTERYDEATH" result ("We may never know what dangers were faced for none emerged alive"). That requires a roll of less than 10 on MarnokDungeoneerBadRandom, whilst the Adventurer promotion ensures the result cannot be lower than 25...

Alternatively, add a line to spellMarnokDungeoneer to display the actual dice roll, or the NoBadExplore value.

 

[Rutee]

If you want to do a test to determine if the NoBad results are working correctly, the easiest way is to throw a whole lot of "Adventurer" units into dungeons and see if any receive the "MYSTERYDEATH" result ("We may never know what dangers were faced for none emerged alive"). That requires a roll of less than 10 on MarnokDungeoneerBadRandom, whilst the Adventurer promotion ensures the result cannot be lower than 25...

Alternatively, add a line to spellMarnokDungeoneer to display the actual dice roll, or the NoBadExplore value.

Really? Damn, I totally wish I kept that save game then. I lost an adventurer to a lair earlier yesterday.

I also lost a game to 3 Mistforms at turn 34 yesterday too. Seriously, something has to be done about some of these results...

 

[WarKirby]

Coming up with a lot of civ specific results, would be a lot of work for little gain. Unless therewould be many different results per civ (which stretches the imagination somewhat) you'd eventually see the same one or two quite regularly.


Personally, I think dungeons should be more generic than that. As mentioned, I'd like to see the frequency and variety of equipment drops, raised drastically. Because that's a huge pool of variety right there, which is sitting unused. No need to add more when you aren't using what you already have.

Also, when the code falls through to the default result, I'd like to see a single re-roll, to try to get something better. Adventurer/Hero could add extra re-rolls in this case, so that harmatt would get 3 rerolls, making it hard for default Orcs result to come up for him, and hopefully producing some more varied things.


Religion specific results, are kind of similar. I can't think of a lot of situations in a dungeon where what particular sky god a unit prays to would make a difference. Unless people ccan come up with plenty of good ideas, I'd advocate removing that section entirely.

Alignment specific results are a bit more feasible, since there's only 3 alignment options. I'm sure we could come up with some ideas here:.

Dark Sword
Your unit finds a room deep within the dungeon, containing a dark blade embedded within a stone. The blade brims with unholy energy.

If Good: Your unit touches the hilt, but recoils as it burns his hands. Thinking some knowledge is best left hidden, your unit seals the entrance as he leaves, burying the sword permanantly. (unit takes small damage, dungeon vanishes)

If Evil: Your unit grasps the searing hilt, but pulls it out easily, as if the sword welcomed him. Your unit feels the power of the sword flowing through him, granting power, but also taking it's toll.
(+3 to the Armageddon Counter, unit gains Evil Sword promotion)
Evil Sword

• +2 Unholy Combat
• -1 defensive strength
• -5% heal rate
• -25% xp gain
• -50% resistance to Holy Damage

 

[WarKirby]

Necromancer

Your unit finds a necromancer in his chamber, conducting dark experiments on corpses robbed from nearby graves.

Good: The necromancer attacks, trying to eliminate this witness to his deeds. (spawn an Agares adept with Death I, and holding an amulet which gives resistance to death damage, and can be taken after battle)

Neutral: The necromancer seems satisfied that your unit will not interfere, and after a time, the two strike up a conversation. Before he leaves, your unit has gained a valuable insight into necromancy (your unit is promoted to Death I)

Evil: The necromancer senses a kindred spirit, and the two begin conversation. Your unit speaks of his homeland, where such people are not shunned. The necromancer travels to your palace the next day, and offers his service to your empire (Recieve a lv1 adept with Death I and 10xp to spend)

 

[Vehem]

Coming up with a lot of civ specific results, would be a lot of work for little gain. Unless therewould be many different results per civ (which stretches the imagination somewhat) you'd eventually see the same one or two quite regularly.

"CivSpecific" could actually mean "CivType" specific... Warlike civs for instance might get a certain result (Clan, Doviello, even Bannor etc) whilst those more prone to forethought (Elohim, Amurite etc) could have another... It's a fairly rare result in anycase so as you said, not a massive reward for time spent - but could be done a little quicker by grouping certain civs (rather than simply grouping by religion/alignment).

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Examples of where that approach is used - "Good/Evil" results both have you encountering a group of adventurers who have just cleared out the lair and are tending their wounded by the entrance. Good players get a result that indicates they've helped the party and shared experiences, whilst Evil players get a result indicating that they attacked the weakened group and took the loot found in the lair for themselves.

 

[Sarisin]

As I said, I have no problem with the good-bad percentages. I think the odds should be stacked against you somewhat. However, the lack of variety is more of an issue IMO.

Here's one for you...

Does the type of unit doing the exploration have any bearing at all on the results?

One would think no, but consider this:

I did some rare exploring with Werewolves, both Blooded and Greater, and I was able to explore 9 lairs/dungeons including the Pyre. Care to guess how many had a bad result?

All nine.

It would seem like the odds against that happening are high, but it happened. Because they are werewolves exploring?

Another thing I discovered in my last game with the Balseraphs - Now that Loki is considered a non-combatant, he is an Uber-Explorer of lairs/dungeons. I don't think he has the hero promotion helping him, but I really got good results for his explorations. Also, the few he had that produced bad guys couldn't touch him because of no combat!

 

[WarKirby]

I'm playing a game as the mercurians from the start, having reversed xienwolf's balancing change which entirely broke them.

They get angels from any living unit that dies under their service in battle. I discovered amusingly, that this includes workers. My capital is spamming a worker every 5 turns, which I promote with Hardy I, and send off into the wilderness to explore until it's quick and inevitable death, resulting in a free angel for me. It seems to only work with combat units, but with a Hardy promotion, a worker IS a combat unit.

Even without the playing from the start aspect, and jsut playing them normally when summoned, it is kind of easy for them to spam any cheap unit that will just die and become an angel. Although they can't build warriors, they can make disciples of any religion, which aren't too expensive, and accomplish the same thing.

I'm thinking, it might be nice for any mercurian unit below a certain strength (perhaps 5,including weapons) to not become an angel, but instead become something weaker. A "cherub" unit or somesuch, which can upgrade into an angel given time/levels.

It does seem a little odd that the mercurians don't really have to depend on good nations failing, when they can just spam workers and disciples at the enemy to fabricate themselves an angelic army.

 

[WarKirby]

Elohim stuff to report

It seems that Devouts require a hunting lodge to build. This is a bit odd. if they're going to have a requirement at all, I think it should be a Monastery, or something similar.

Also, their pedia entry specifically says that they "tend the sick and dying", yet they have no medic promotions. I think they should at least have Medic I, probably Medic II.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Something just hit me.
Vampiric units can eat blodpets to heal them self. But they can not do the same with slaves.
Is that intentional or just an owersight as it sounds quite strange that they could not just pick out a slave from the pens and eat him.

 

[Sarisin]

Archers, etc. get XP for ranged combat.

I was wondering why units that use their bombard ability don't get XP?

Isn't it about the same with just different targets?

The Jotnar would be the most affected I suppose.

 

[deadliver]

Something just hit me.
Vampiric units can eat blodpets to heal them self. But they can not do the same with slaves.
Is that intentional or just an owersight as it sounds quite strange that they could not just pick out a slave from the pens and eat him.

Check out my Slaver module, vampires get to feed on slaves, course that wasn't my idea...probably it was yours!