Fall Further 050 Balance Issues

[xienwolf]

I just loaded up a game and damaged one of my starting units, he was set to take 2 turns to heal. I slapped HN on him and it jumped up to 4 turns to heal. I set a Barbarian City next to him (so that he was in Hostile Territory) and he remained at 4 turns to heal (HN still applied). I declared Nationality, and he still remained at 4 turns to heal.


Test seems to show that it is working precisely as it should, while you are HN, EVERYTHING except for your own territory is considered hostile territory, and thus it takes you longer to heal than a non-HN unit would in Neutral lands, but the same amount of time in enemy lands.

 

[WarKirby]

Test seems to show that it is working precisely as it should, while you are HN, EVERYTHING except for your own territory is considered hostile territory, and thus it takes you longer to heal than a non-HN unit would in Neutral lands, but the same amount of time in enemy lands.

Alright, so if we knnow that's how it's intended, now we can ask. Why?

Why are neutral lands counted as hostile, too?

I generally envision them as just big open areas of undeveloped wilderness. The wild animals aren't going to care about your nationality.Caves won't refuse you shelter. Campfires will still start, hunted animals will provide nutrition, etc.

What justification is there for HN units healing more slowly in unowned land?

 

[xienwolf]

Code checks to see if the unit is hostile toward the owner of the tile you are in. No units are hostile to a lack of owner, except HN units who are hostile to EVERYONE who asks if they are, even if it is nobody. It could be easily changed I imagine to not bother checking for hostility unless the tile is actually owned, but nobody has requested that it be thus modified, so either they don't know it is possible, or approve of this as a balance for HN.

 

[far_wanderer]

I'm fairly sure they do take on more damage than non-HN units, WK.

My last couple of games I have built HN Spider armies and even my soldier spiders with over 100 XP and beaucoup promotions are taking double-digit turns to heal after killing units - even with 99.9% combat odds. I don't think the non-HN units rack up such damage/healing turns.

Also, don't get me started on the fleeing again. Once again, the Illians and Archos (including Workers) are fleeing from just about every battle leaving my HN units with serious damage.

Haha, I like your idea about the Spider Inn.

Look at how much damage they actually took, not how long it will take to heal. HN units have a low enough base healing rate that anything that effects healing rates in the slightest will have a very noticeable effect that could throw off your tests.
Also remember that combat odds, if I understand it correctly, is the chance to win overall, not the chance to win each individual combat round.
I hear you on fleeing. The new Hardy promotions for workers (which the AI seems to really love) are really good, and can get them up to a defensive strength of 5 in addition to the withdrawal chance. I also believe the Illians and Archos are both Defensive, meaning every single unit also starts off with a base withdrawal chance.

 

[ICanHasName?]

I think there is a typo with hardy III making it give out more withdraw chance then it should. Combine that with 5 base strength and tile defenses and they are one of the better ways to defend a city. They can just skirmish with your entire army, pass out a little damage to some of them, and flee without leaving the tile.

Also, I think the oddities of the Civ combat system give a minimum chance to hit in a combat round or a minimum damage or something like that. In any case, expect to probly take some damage unless you have first strikes.

Edit: true but archers only work until they loose. 80-90 percent withdraw chance means a few workers can just absorb endless attacks from anything (that doesn't have first strikes, I think). Once the withdrawal is fixed of course they wont even compare.
Edit2: wait has it been fixed? Does hardy III still give 50% withdraw or whatever?

 

[WarKirby]

I think there is a typo with hardy III making it give out more withdraw chance then it should. Combine that with 5 base strength and tile defenses and they are one of the better ways to defend a city.

Workers cost 75 , whereas archers are 60

Also, the hardy promotions have tech prereqs beyond the first.

overall, I don't think workers are especially good as city defenders, but it does seem a little much

 

[Sarisin]

I know Vehem did some work on the fleeing of Workers specifically in patch n. Honestly, I don't see much of a difference from the previous version, especially when you are dealing with the Illians.

I realize it is part of the game, but it is so damn frustrating when you have a unit like Valin, Stephanos, Buboes, etc. down to strength 0.X, and you cannot kill them because they flee multiple times in a single turn - I recently had Valin flee SEVEN times. It really adds the whack-a-mole feature to the game.

Yes, mounted units can get promotions that help them flee, but IMO there should be a limit how many times a unit can flee in one turn. Also, maybe based on strength too, i.e., units with less than 1 strength cannot flee again (and again, and again). I guess that would not include Workers, though.

I can see the discussion on HN damage is headed where it has been before.

Xienwolf, you have a good example in your test. However, if you play enough to get more samples you will get the HN units needing 20+ turns to heal. Again, all I am saying is the damage is simply not proportional to the strength of the attacking unit vs. the defending unit. If your combat odds in the battle are 99.9%, I can certainly accept damage of 2-4 turns. However, 20+ turns is too much.

Getting March for HN units helps. Taking along a Medic (may not be able to go into other civ's lands if no open borders agreement, though). Both bring down the healing times if you have them.

 

[xienwolf]

Toss me a save where you take an insane period of time to heal. I can check if you have promotions slowing you down, or if there is entropy mana involved, or whatever else. Cheatcode damages a unit 10% per click, and I was taking 2 turns per click to heal in neutral lands if not HN, 4 turns per in enemy lands, or if HN. That means you WILL take 20 turns to heal 50% when HN or in Hostile territory with any unit who doesn't have assistance.

 

[Sarisin]

Toss me a save where you take an insane period of time to heal. I can check if you have promotions slowing you down, or if there is entropy mana involved, or whatever else. Cheatcode damages a unit 10% per click, and I was taking 2 turns per click to heal in neutral lands if not HN, 4 turns per in enemy lands, or if HN. That means you WILL take 20 turns to heal 50% when HN or in Hostile territory with any unit who doesn't have assistance.

Insane, eh? How about 20+ turns?

It would miss my other point though and that is, again, why so many turns to heal when you completely overmatch your opponent? I'm not sure how I could save that.

I have no idea what cheatcode is. I don't think it is any problem with promotions - Just the usual, Combat V, those other Spider promotions, etc. Again, the example I gave was in 'neutral' territory, so I don't think Entropy mana could be involved.

While I have you, I have to ask one other unrelated question...

I've noticed in the dirty tricks department that if you have a wounded single unit out beyond your borders, the AI will magically spawn a barb group next to it, and sometimes kill it. Also, as I mentioned elsewhere, I like to plant HN Spiders outside my borders as sentries and to pick off unsuspecting units, barb and otherwise. However, I've noticed again, the AI will very often spawn a group of barb units that CAN see the spider and kill it.

Is this a sneaky devised AI plan, or just dumb luck? It happens too much to be the latter I think.

 

[xienwolf]

Promotions: Poison or Withered or anything else with negative heal rates. And it could be that Entropy Mana is having a universal effect instead of a local one or something.

But 20+ turns is always going to be the case if damaged at 50% or more and HN. Getting damage dealt to you when you massively outmatch your opponent (by odds) is not special, it'll always happen. When you outmatch them by numbers (23.52 vs 3.24) instead of odds THEN I get more worried. Those tell you far better what to expect, but there is always the "luck factor" with the streaky RNG, typically if you are rolling poor, you roll poor a couple times in a row, which means losing a few rounds you shouldn't have thought you would lose. Plus once you lose a round that shifts things into your opponent's favor, so if they happen to get lucky on the first round of combat, it improves their chances for the entire combat drastically. (turning the combat log back on would be required to see precisely how it is playing out for you)


Spawns for Barbarians are done by choosing random plots on a continent and then checking if they are allowed to spawn there (not owned, or owner is at peace, no other unit already on the tile, proper Domain for the unit to spawn in). If it choose a bad tile, it chooses another one at random until it gets one it is allowed to use. As for which unit will spawn, for the Orcs it is completely random from all units it is allowed to spawn, and they learn techs VERY slow, so won't get new units available anytime soon, thus goblins are pretty likely for a long while. Animals spawn completely randomly as well, but never gain any new units and the list of possible spawns is set by the terrain & features of the random tile selected. Demons tech pretty quickly behind the players (impossible for them to ever be ahead of the players) and will always try to spawn their strongest units, but there is a random shift in their decisions which is just large enough they could spawn their least favorite unit (Guardian Vines - 0 value) even when allowed to spawn their most favorite unit (Death Knights - 1500+ value).

 

[ICanHasName?]

Plus once you lose a round that shifts things into your opponent's favor, so if they happen to get lucky on the first round of combat, it improves their chances for the entire combat drastically

Wait... I thought this very specifically didn't happen. Didn't they change the combat system ages ago so that a) being damaged in combat has no effect on the current combat other then lowering your HP and b) damaged units fight either at full strength or the average of their current str value and their full value (or something like that)?

Also, I heard somewhere that there is some kind of minimum damage inflicted when you win a round, or a minimum chance to hit or something like that. That would bias combat in favor of horribly outmatched units doing damage to stuff, which seems to be what you are seeing.

Edit: did a quick test, units do fight at whatever strength they are currently at. An arquebus (str 10) blasted down to exactly str 7 using maelstrom shows 7 strength on the combat odds thing. A full health ranger attacking it has 63.7% odds. Promotions that increase strength also add based on the current strength.

 

[xienwolf]

I'd have to look to be sure, learned how combat worked a long time ago and didn't ever hear of any changes or look into things to check precisely how it goes.

 

[Sarisin]

My first game playing as the Kahd, so please bear with me.

I was able to found Message From the Deep with a Great Prophet and then build the Necromwhatever holy building with another Great Prophet. I also got a Zealot when I founded the religion I could use to spread it to another of my cities. Then, it spread on its own to more cities.

Is this the way it is supposed to work for a civ with the Intolerant trait?

Also, why have all the religion-founding techs available for research if they cannot do anything for you?

Finally, the 2 creatures that have emerged from the Vault Gates (sorry, I forget the names) seem to be awfully weak, especially compared to what you get from Planar Gates. Am I missing something on their power or capabilities?

Thank you.

 

[Mathiou]

My first game playing as the Kahd, so please bear with me.

I was able to found Message From the Deep with a Great Prophet and then build the Necromwhatever holy building with another Great Prophet. I also got a Zealot when I founded the religion I could use to spread it to another of my cities. Then, it spread on its own to more cities.

Is this the way it is supposed to work for a civ with the Intolerant trait?

Hi,

In addition to Sarisin, I was playing Kahd and have been able to found the Message from the deep religion by researching it - normal behavior - but I founded the religion - not normal . The second strange thing is that the religion spread to another of my city without the use of a zealot...

Founding holy cities and religion spreading without "missionaries" should not be normal isn't it ?

Regards,
Mathieu

 

[Sarisin]

I was also able to found COE and I got a HN Nightwatch which I used to spread the religion to all my cities. Using a Great Prophet I built Nox Noctis.

Where does the Kahd hero come in? I have to say they are really sucking wind with no religious heroes or National hero. I looked in the Civilopedia, but it was unclear when you get a National hero. Kahd? Strength of Will? That is very late for a civ that cannot get religious heroes.

I was ready to ditch this civ as one of the worst I have played (those early creatures from the Vault are pathetic!), but now I am getting some mighty sweet Elementals that are creating more Elementals.

It's too bad the game has been ruined by getting Blight three times (see bug thread).

 

[WarKirby]

Kahd has serious problems with the early game. He becomes available as a hero at Strength of Will. But he's not able to use twincast due to a design oversight. Unless you're using my promotion tweaking module.



Anyways, something unrelated. The illian priests seem to have some issues.
both Priests of Winter, and High Priests of Winter, only have Medic I. Which means they can't cast cure disease or heal. And since Auric is agnostic, of course, nobody else can either. So the illians are left with no way to cure disease. This is a bit silly.

Also, high priests of winter are kind of weak. They're str9, while other high priests are str8, but you can only ever get 3 of them.

Personally, I'd suggest just making them more possible to get. Make Priests of Winter buildable at priesthood, with a temple of the hand, and no limits.

 

[Sarisin]

Kahd has serious problems with the early game. He becomes available as a hero at Strength of Will. But he's not able to use twincast due to a design oversight. Unless you're using my promotion tweaking module.



Anyways, something unrelated. The illian priests seem to have some issues.
both Priests of Winter, and High Priests of Winter, only have Medic I. Which means they can't cast cure disease or heal. And since Auric is agnostic, of course, nobody else can either. So the illians are left with no way to cure disease. This is a bit silly.

Also, high priests of winter are kind of weak. They're str9, while other high priests are str8, but you can only ever get 3 of them.

Personally, I'd suggest just making them more possible to get. Make Priests of Winter buildable at priesthood, with a temple of the hand, and no limits.

When you combine the late hero with lack of religious heroes, the Kahd have to be one of the weakest civs in the early-mid game. I still haven't seen Kahd (he better be an uber hero to wait that long for him!), but the Elementals I am getting make up for those poor Gnostlings I was getting allover the place in the early going.

Speaking of medic/cure disease units, when do the Kahd ones show up?

My stacks have been taking long times to heal and I have diseased corpses causing problems for me that cannot be solved by constantly moving across the map to the Pool of Tears.

 

[Valkrionn]

The Kahdi don't currently have any.... I'm thinking I might add them to the Gnoslings, dependent on certain buildings in the city?

 

[Vehem]

Kahd has serious problems with the early game. He becomes available as a hero at Strength of Will. But he's not able to use twincast due to a design oversight. Unless you're using my promotion tweaking module.

Level requirement/no Hero requirement is already merged as mentioned before.

Anyways, something unrelated. The illian priests seem to have some issues.
both Priests of Winter, and High Priests of Winter, only have Medic I. Which means they can't cast cure disease or heal. And since Auric is agnostic, of course, nobody else can either. So the illians are left with no way to cure disease. This is a bit silly.

Infirmaries in FF all remove disease, as does Aquae Succellus and the Pool of Tears. No units doesn't mean no way. That being said, there's a case that High Priests should have it, even if lorewise they wouldn't spend much time tending the sick (but neither would OO or AV)

 

[Sarisin]

Would it be possible to not allow barb units to attack/pillage on the same turn they are spawned?

Let me illustrate with an example from my game:

Playing as Kahdi, I am using Water Elementals to defend my work boat improvements in small bodies of water.

It should work OK as I have 6 Water Elementals and they are pretty strong.

However, the AI is spawning mostly Carracks with a few Caravels thrown in right next to the Elementals just about every turn. That's 5 per turn. They suicide against the Elementals, and kill at least one.

This honestly kept going on almost every turn until the Water Elementals were wiped out and my improvements destroyed. My city on the water cannot produce ships anywhere close to how fast the AI spawns GROUPs of ships.

Actually, IMO there are two issues here:

1. The barbs spawning right next to units/improvements and attacking/pillaging the same turn they spawn. I just don't think you can devise any kind of strategy for this and it is frustrating as they will often spawn a group next to an injured unit or two and just kill it/them. How about a chance to react?

2. The other thing is that sometimes I think the spawning rate is a little too much. My example of getting 5 barb Carracks almost every turn in the same small body of water. Five are killed, but next turn five more are back until you have no more defenders. Again, there just isn't much strategy involved here you just have to sit back and watch your units go.

Anyway, just thinking out loud based on my last couple of games....