Fall Further RLD

[Mailbox]

Things I like and just might steal

Unit changes:
-Lightbringers have better results from tribal villiages, both for thematic reasons and so the Malakim don't start without a unit with this ability.

A Definite "duh" change imo

Spell changes:

-The magic tech tree was shuffled around a bit. Knowledge of the Ether know leads directly to Sorcery, which is 200 beakers cheaper than it used to be. Sorcery leads to the 4 "node" techs, which are each 200 beakers more expensive. Any of the 4 "node" techs leads to Arcane Lore, which also got a 200 beaker price cut. Also, Strength of Will's science flavor was boosted so Great Sages will prefer it over Pass Through the Ether.

This is an interesting change and I do like it, although it could prove to be overpowering.

Building changes:

-The Theatre is now priced a bit more reasonably at 180 hammers instead of 250.
-The City of A Thousand Slums is enabled by Taxation instead of Engineering.
-All Palaces grant a city defense bonus to the capital. Most grant a flat 25% defense bonus. The exceptions are: The Chizlev palace gives only +20% defense in that city, but also gives +10% defense in all other cities; The Illian palace gives +40% defense in the capital, but all other Illian cities suffer -10% defense; The Archos palace gives +30% defense; The Infernal palace gives +60% defense in the capital, -25% bombardment damage in the capital, and +10% defense in all other cities; and the Mercurian palace gives +50% defense in the capital, -50% bombardment damage in the capital, and +20% defense in all other cities.

I like all of these as well.

-New building: Castle. Requires Walls and Military Strategy, costs 200 hammers. All-purpose defensive building that gives the following benefits: +25% city defense, +25% bombard defense, -20% war weariness, -15% maintainence, +10% military production, and allows 1 Engineer. Double production speed for Defender leaders.

A good defensive building was needed, maybe add a wonder that grants Castles in every city?

-Aqueducts give +1 food from river tiles, which does a lot to justify their hammer cost.

Pretty overpowering, I'd prefer a + 1 bonus instead since the river could be used more for trade than for water.

General changes:

-New resource: Stone. Production resource connectable with a quarry. The following buildings build faster with Stone: Aqueducts, Castle, Courthouse, Governer's Manor, Dungeon, Monument, Shrine to Kylorin, Walls and Palisade.
-Marble is now a luxury resource and is revealed by Masonry.
-The Remnants of Patria provide Stone.
-The Yggdrasil gets +2 food from Tracking instead of Way of the Forests, so that Agnostic civs can get a bit more out of it.
-The tile yields of worked Ivory and Whales were improved a bit to make these resources a bit more desirable in a city's fat cross.
-Oasis tiles no longer slow movement or block vision.
-Industrious no longer gives +50% wonder production; instead it gives +1 hammer on tiles with 3 or more hammers.-The Goblin Wastes, Library Fire, and Sailor's Dirge events have been disabled for now because I feel they add nothing to the game and/or are unfair. The Dirge specifically will be reenabled in the next version with the Sailing tech prereq; Goblin Wastes and Library fire will require extensive reworking before I am willing to reenable them.
-The Sickness event will only trigger in unhealthy cities (mostly to prevent it from happening early game in your capital).

Again, all solid ideas. Very well implemented.

You don't mind if I take some for MEM, do you?

 

[Vehem]

Things I like and just might steal

Must admit I've been looking at most of these myself

 

[MaxAstro]

I'd be honored if you guys stole my ideas. Plus it would save me the work of reimplementing them in the next version.

 

[Tarquelne]

Sorcery and the node techs:

This is an interesting change and I do like it, although it could prove to be overpowering.

I was thinking about how often I've rushed to Sorcery and generally done quite well by it... I'd be very surprised if quicker/cheaper Sorcery didn't narrow the range of good choices significantly.

Maybe another tech between KotE and Sorcery? Perhaps one that allows you to make nodes?

So:

KoTE: Can make Adepts, place-mana nodes available.
Proposed tech: Can make more palace-mana nodes.
Sorcery: Can make Mages.
Node- techs: Makes new mana types available.

But I think the proposed tech would require extra coding.

Hmm... Introduce the new used-to-be-Amurite-only feature xeinwolf mentioned earlier (and in another thread, IIRC.) at that tech instead? I don't know exactly how it'd work, but since the coding is already being done...

Finally: Could use the new slot to make free-xp for mages available. So you could research up to KoTE to get 1 free spell per mage. If you want more you'll need to either have them go out and kill things, or keep researching down the magic tech-line.

 

[MaxAstro]

The next version of RLD is going to include a fairly significant change to the magic line, one that will make Mages a fair bit more powerful, but will also make "off-line" mages/archmages like Gibbon Goetia a fair bit more balanced. When that happens I may switch Sorcery back, or it may get a cost increase... The main new features will require certain node techs to be researched before they are of any use, and for that reason I like having Sorcery before the node techs.

I will definitely need balance input from you guys to make this work. I use the magic line more than anything else so that's why it gets most of my focus. Once I get the major changes to that line done in the next version, however, I will very much be looking at other lines and seeing what could be done with them.

There will also be a couple pretty heavy changes to the recon line that may or may not make the next version. Oh, and the Kuriotates. If I get around to it, the Kuriotates are gonna get a HUGE makeover. Expect them to play not even remotely similar to what they do right now.

That said, all these changes will mean that the next version will be WAAY off. I'll try to get a beta changelog posted when I have a better idea exactly what will be in the next version.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

sounds interesting, looking forward to the new version

 

[MaxAstro]

Updated second post with BETA changelog for next version.

 

[Valkrionn]

I love the Cult of the Dragon changes... Gonna have to give it a try when it's out.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

lots of brilliant changes there, hopefully Vehem reads that and gets them into FF 043

feedback:

1) cripple giving +1 movement doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. maybe it's a typo and it's actually -1 movement? that would be better imho.
2) turn frostling sounds VERY situational. I'd like to see Samhain be repeatable though, or maybe even having frostlings as UUs for the Illians... that would make the spell more interesting
3) acid fog doesn't sound like Nature magic at all. seriously.
4) it seems like you have a lot of fireball-style spells there. that might take away from the uniqueness of the spells.
5) hideous thoughts sounds very similar to Earthquake ( un-fortifying units ) .

 

[cyther]

I am very impressed with your ideas, looking forward to seeing the next version.

 

[Valkrionn]

lots of brilliant changes there, hopefully Vehem reads that and gets them into FF 043

feedback:

1) cripple giving +1 movement doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. maybe it's a typo and it's actually -1 movement? that would be better imho.

I believe it said +1 movement COST, so two movement is really only 1 square moved.

3) acid fog doesn't sound like Nature magic at all. seriously.

Nature damage is represented by poison at the moment, so a cloud of poison fits imo... Not as benevolent as the rest of the Nature line, but it gives Nature a decent dmg spell.

4) it seems like you have a lot of fireball-style spells there. that might take away from the uniqueness of the spells.

Meh... More targeted spells is a good thing in my book. Too many magic lines rely entirely on summons for dmg.

 

[MaxAstro]

lots of brilliant changes there, hopefully Vehem reads that and gets them into FF 043

feedback:

1) cripple giving +1 movement doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. maybe it's a typo and it's actually -1 movement? that would be better imho.
2) turn frostling sounds VERY situational. I'd like to see Samhain be repeatable though, or maybe even having frostlings as UUs for the Illians... that would make the spell more interesting
3) acid fog doesn't sound like Nature magic at all. seriously.
4) it seems like you have a lot of fireball-style spells there. that might take away from the uniqueness of the spells.
5) hideous thoughts sounds very similar to Earthquake ( un-fortifying units ) .

1) It is +1 movement cost, effectively cutting the move rate of the unit in half. Much worse than Slow.
2) The main use of Turn Frostling is for Samhain; non-Illians will get very little out of it. I might change it, but I might not; Ice on the whole is not a very great mana type for anyone but the Illians. The original idea for Ice 2.5 was another Fireball-like: Icicle Lance. About the same strength as Fireball, no collateral, but has a chance of slowing or immobilizing all units on the tile it his. Let me know if you think that would be a better idea.
3) Originally it was a damage spell called Crushing Vines that damaged units standing in forests, but that was too situational. Poison-type effects ARE nature (Poisoned Blade), and I felt Nature needed a combat spell.
4) I am trying very hard to make them all unique, and unique compared to summons. Fireball is for collateral damage and bombardment, Meteor Swarm is for sieging cities, Animate Weapon is for stack support, Crushing Wave is for naval warfare, Acid Fog is for anti-stack. Also, each does a different damage type, which can matter a fair bit.
5) You are correct. Hideous Thoughts does have the added bonus of making those effected defend the stack, which can help a lot; If the strongest unit on the stack is magic immune or resistant, then you'll be able to pick off weaker units. I probably will change this one, though. Actually, I might make Hideous Thoughts Mind 1, so that I can make Inspiration stronger.

 

[Gilg]

Must admit I've been looking at most of these myself

Please please please do steal.... i find myself in love with the orbi mod warfare and economic. Having the brilliant aspects of ff at the same time would be sweet.... and this new modmodmodmodmodmodmodmodmod sounds quite addictive too.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Icicle Lance sounds good. not astonishingly unique, but I do see Valkrionn's point: lots and lots and lots of spheres with summons so some more direct damage spells can't hurt. I guess Icicle lance would be a good Arcane spell ( so that it is actually useful to anyone ) , while turn frostling will be excellent as divine 1 ( which should be illian-only iirc ) .

Accelerate sounds like a copycat of Haste tbh, I'm sure you can come up with something better

you could turn Acid fog to "poisonous vines ( that sprout from beneath)" , make it work like acid fog except that it will use the ranged attack mechanic instead than the fireball one.

shape earth is lovely and another spell to turn hills into peaks and viceversa would be awesome as well

 

[MaxAstro]

Icicle Lance sounds good. not astonishingly unique, but I do see Valkrionn's point: lots and lots and lots of spheres with summons so some more direct damage spells can't hurt. I guess Icicle lance would be a good Arcane spell ( so that it is actually useful to anyone ) , while turn frostling will be excellent as divine 1 ( which should be illian-only iirc ) .

Accelerate sounds like a copycat of Haste tbh, I'm sure you can come up with something better

you could turn Acid fog to "poisonous vines ( that sprout from beneath)" , make it work like acid fog except that it will use the ranged attack mechanic instead than the fireball one.

shape earth is lovely and another spell to turn hills into peaks and viceversa would be awesome as well

I'll might stick Icicle Lance back in, then, especially if I take your suggestion about Acid Fog. I could certainly see that spell working as ranged damage rather than a fireball mechanic.

Accelerate is supposed to be a copy of Haste. It is mainly meant to work with Siege units, and to give the Scions an alternative way of speeding up their units.

 

[Valkrionn]

Icicle Lance sounds good. not astonishingly unique, but I do see Valkrionn's point: lots and lots and lots of spheres with summons so some more direct damage spells can't hurt. I guess Icicle lance would be a good Arcane spell ( so that it is actually useful to anyone ) , while turn frostling will be excellent as divine 1 ( which should be illian-only iirc ) .

Accelerate sounds like a copycat of Haste tbh, I'm sure you can come up with something better

Actually, Vehem has said he was thinking about creating an accelerate spell, with those exact stats, for Force 1, moving the missiles to Force 2, as in MaxAstro's changes.

you could turn Acid fog to "poisonous vines ( that sprout from beneath)" , make it work like acid fog except that it will use the ranged attack mechanic instead than the fireball one.

I like that, actually... Does seem better for Nature mana.

 

[Vehem]

Actually, Vehem has said he was thinking about creating an accelerate spell, with those exact stats, for Force 1, moving the missiles to Force 2, as in MaxAstro's changes.

Aye - it does seem a better option than the "Unstoppable" that I currently have, and if the Khazad were given Force as a Palace Mana (or their new "engineers" when I get around to them were given the spell inherently) it would go someway toward solving the calls for "faster siege" for them.

 

[Tarquelne]

I love the Cult of the Dragon changes... Gonna have to give it a try when it's out.

Ditto. And the 2.5/requires Node tech idea... (Esp. as it's an excuse to make Node techs higher cost, at least in my personal modmod modmod mod.)


(The rest applies as much to FF as RLD.)

Khazad Engineers: What if Engineers were the Khazad equivalent of Adepts? I'm not a fan of Engineers picking up a convenient spell, but Engineers-as-Adepts might help explain why they don't go much further with magic - their approach is very different, treating it more like a "mundane" skill.

Re "Force"

Here's a Kael quote I dug up:

I always viewed it more as the the power of mandates. A wall of force isnt anything expect the universes consensus that nothing should pass through this space. As such Dagda is similiar to Junil. Except where Junil is intolerant of anything outside of his strict interpetation, Dagda is willing to gather consensus. But once that consensus is gained Dagda decrees are immutable. That is force.

IIRC a little before that he says the sphere's a "difficult one."

I'd like to see Force pushed a little closer to that. Exactly how is a problem. Force 3 seems to fit well - it's even the example K. gives. I like the old Whirlwind effect a lot, though I thought it was over-powered. (Needs a resistance bonus?) Perhaps recast "Accelerate" and/or MM as some sort of TK?

Err... I'll just make a proposal:

Force 1: Universal Leverage - +10 ranged damage limit, +10 bombard, +1 op. range. (Or maybe +1 attack rather than a range increase.) Also: +1 move for non-living.
(I'm trying to hint at a mystical persuasion with the spell name.)
Force 2: Ban - Whirlwind with an easy resistance roll, preferably works on only 1 square. Alternately, a "Hold" effect.
Force 3: Wall of Force

Given the suggestion re: Engineers that'd be pretty close to giving Engineers U. Leverage as an inherent spell.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

about Mind 2.5 : how about a spell named "bliss" that increases happiness in the city? ( works like inspiration and hope ) . it sounds pretty fitting and definitely useful to me