I seem to struggle with this concept. I need an advise. How do you guys choose between these two improvements? At the beginning of a game I build farms and mines. My civilization prosper and I take off very good. By the middle of the game I struggle a little with gold. My oponents seem to pass me and I end up in the middle somewhere. I noticed that by the middle of a game the AI only has mines and cottages/villages/towns (mostly towns). So, I am guessing that this is why they passing me. Towns bring gold, and lots of it. But if I buld cottages, my cities stop growing somewhere around 15 or 17 size. At the beginning, how do you choose on which part of the land to build a cottage, forge or a farm?
Farms or Cottages?
- Thread starter Bospor
- Start date
largedarryl
Prince
Well in the early game, you don't need very many size 15-17 size cities (unless you are running a strict specialist economy). I would imagine that you also suffer from a lot of unhappiness and unhealthiness problems in the middle game with city sizes that large.
Basically if you have a city with 2 or more food resources in the BFC, it would be a good idea to cottage everything else.
I'm sure that someone else will come answer your question a little better, but it wouldn't hurt to take a look at the war academy for some advice on how to build your improvements.
Basically if you have a city with 2 or more food resources in the BFC, it would be a good idea to cottage everything else.
I'm sure that someone else will come answer your question a little better, but it wouldn't hurt to take a look at the war academy for some advice on how to build your improvements.
Replacing farms with a cottage is easy and cheap.
Replacing a town with a farm is expensive.
Early game rewards food and specialists.
Middle game rewards money.
So what I do is build a lot of farms early on, and one or two cottages. Later, if the city has too much food (low health or happiness caps) then I just replace one farm at a time with cottages. Since I'm not replacing the farms all at once there's always a nice steadily increasing stream of cash.
For new cities in the mid-game with lots of grassland, I just spam cottages right out instead of worrying about farms to keep specialists happy. I just use enough farms to supply the production squares.
Replacing a town with a farm is expensive.
Early game rewards food and specialists.
Middle game rewards money.
So what I do is build a lot of farms early on, and one or two cottages. Later, if the city has too much food (low health or happiness caps) then I just replace one farm at a time with cottages. Since I'm not replacing the farms all at once there's always a nice steadily increasing stream of cash.
For new cities in the mid-game with lots of grassland, I just spam cottages right out instead of worrying about farms to keep specialists happy. I just use enough farms to supply the production squares.
Silence101
King
Yeah, I think you need to look at your happy-cap in a city to determine how big it can grow until people get mad. That gives you an idea of how many farms you need (if any... if city placement is really good, you may likely not need any farms). For a CE, I'd probably cottage everything else. It takes some planning though... plus, as you progress in the game, your happy-cap will increase, and you'll probably want to have food available grow your population at that point. The key is controlled growth. I think people commonly make the mistake of placing too many farms and their city growth goes way out of control. Unhappy citizens do nothing for you.
Legendre
Chieftain
oops, multipost. read below! 
Legendre
Chieftain
Actually, I had the same experience when I first played Civ 4 . Back in the original civ you only had to build farms and roads - there were no cottages, so the decision was greatly simplified. In the current game there are 2 ways you can go on economy:
1. Cottage Economy (CE)
For the general commerce city (gold and research production) I usually go for about 4 squares which produce more than 2 food. These can be farmed grasslands, special tiles, floodplains, you name it. All other grasslands get cottages. For hills, I will usually mine everything until I can make windmills at which point I switch over, maybe leave a mine or two if things build too slow. Plains are usually farmed too unless the city has alot of plains and a few high food producing tiles, in which case I'd cottage a one or two plains as well. Also until you get beaurocracy, just cottage everything that cannot be farmed in sight. All these cities produce a hefty sum of gold after they grow up but will not make many hammers so go for a few production cities that are just all farms and mines - a nice area for something like this would be an inland area with all grassland tiles and a bunch of hills and maybe some juicy resources. Given your country size, I'd only make 1 production city if you are building a small compact peaceful country let's say 6 or so cities, obviously more as you get bigger. Obviously, this is just a rough idea, you have to adapt to the terrain you're given and keep in mind what world wonders and national wonders you are likely to build and where. If there is an awesome flat area of grasslands covered in forests and a river, build a city there and hold onto the forests for your national park. Think about what is the best coastal location for your moiai statues, which of your production cities deserves the ironworks, and which is going to be your military base with the heroic epic and west point. Now for wonders, if you are having major early money problems try and get a religious shrine ASAP, just build a temple and put a good old priest to work . Also if you have a primarily coastal country (which would be ideal if you are playing the dutch), the Great Lighthouse can really make a ton of money early on. Finally, remember not to overexpand. If your science rate is under 60%, do not build anymore cities (unless it is just way tooo juicey to pass up the spot), until you can get a possitive cash flow back. Finally, try and get Universal Sufferage ASAP as the bonus hammers from all your towns (and you should have plenty of them as you've cottaged since the beginning of the game right!) make all your commerce cities quite productive, and free market obviously helps too. Merchantilism is really for the specialist economy.
2. Specialist Economy (SE)
I'm still a newbie on this one! I just read a great article from this website on it a day ago, and am still working on my first game with SE as Pericles on a huge terra map, marathon, 18 civs - and it is a blast.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=197818
I hope this helps and good luck.
. Back in the original civ you only had to build farms and roads - there were no cottages, so the decision was greatly simplified. In the current game there are 2 ways you can go on economy:1. Cottage Economy (CE)
For the general commerce city (gold and research production) I usually go for about 4 squares which produce more than 2 food. These can be farmed grasslands, special tiles, floodplains, you name it. All other grasslands get cottages. For hills, I will usually mine everything until I can make windmills at which point I switch over, maybe leave a mine or two if things build too slow. Plains are usually farmed too unless the city has alot of plains and a few high food producing tiles, in which case I'd cottage a one or two plains as well. Also until you get beaurocracy, just cottage everything that cannot be farmed in sight. All these cities produce a hefty sum of gold after they grow up but will not make many hammers so go for a few production cities that are just all farms and mines - a nice area for something like this would be an inland area with all grassland tiles and a bunch of hills and maybe some juicy resources. Given your country size, I'd only make 1 production city if you are building a small compact peaceful country let's say 6 or so cities, obviously more as you get bigger. Obviously, this is just a rough idea, you have to adapt to the terrain you're given and keep in mind what world wonders and national wonders you are likely to build and where. If there is an awesome flat area of grasslands covered in forests and a river, build a city there and hold onto the forests for your national park
. Think about what is the best coastal location for your moiai statues, which of your production cities deserves the ironworks, and which is going to be your military base with the heroic epic and west point. Now for wonders, if you are having major early money problems try and get a religious shrine ASAP, just build a temple and put a good old priest to work . Also if you have a primarily coastal country (which would be ideal if you are playing the dutch), the Great Lighthouse can really make a ton of money early on. Finally, remember not to overexpand. If your science rate is under 60%, do not build anymore cities (unless it is just way tooo juicey to pass up the spot), until you can get a possitive cash flow back. Finally, try and get Universal Sufferage ASAP as the bonus hammers from all your towns (and you should have plenty of them as you've cottaged since the beginning of the game right!) make all your commerce cities quite productive, and free market obviously helps too. Merchantilism is really for the specialist economy.2. Specialist Economy (SE)
I'm still a newbie on this one! I just read a great article from this website on it a day ago, and am still working on my first game with SE as Pericles on a huge terra map, marathon, 18 civs - and it is a blast
.http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=197818
I hope this helps and good luck
.
Kennigit
proud 2 boxer
Simple answer is to do basically a strict CE at lower difficulties when you are learning the game. As you start getting a feel for the game, you can try with specialist economies or other stuff.
I do cottages, because its good for early commerce and gets a big boost w/ free speech and printing press (+3 tio townwith both), which is right about when towns roll in every couple of turns.
Cottage economies are great late game, with universal suffrage (+1 hammer to towns), free speech, free religion, levees, and the sheer commerce. Acouple farms might be needed, but a city working 12+ towns is
more than good... its great!
I do cottages, because its good for early commerce and gets a big boost w/ free speech and printing press (+3 tio townwith both), which is right about when towns roll in every couple of turns.
Cottage economies are great late game, with universal suffrage (+1 hammer to towns), free speech, free religion, levees, and the sheer commerce. Acouple farms might be needed, but a city working 12+ towns is
more than good... its great!True. I spam farms, but I also check the city management every time they finish their building queue and rebalance the food to what I want.
Littlelisa
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2005
- Messages
- 145
Cottages on flood plains is always good.
Also financial civs get a nice bonus, river side cottages, windmills produce extra commerce straight away.
After a few farms, which lets you grow and put a few people in mines etc, turn at least a couple grasslands into towns.
Most people find 1-2 good spot with grasslands, floodplains to make a main money farm.
I got super lucky with my current game, city has 5 floodplains, 4 silk and my religion got its holy city in that city. Drop some great merchants or prophets in the city, add some buildings like market, bank, wall street and your done.
That one city is keeping my empire running
Also financial civs get a nice bonus, river side cottages, windmills produce extra commerce straight away.
After a few farms, which lets you grow and put a few people in mines etc, turn at least a couple grasslands into towns.
Most people find 1-2 good spot with grasslands, floodplains to make a main money farm.
I got super lucky with my current game, city has 5 floodplains, 4 silk and my religion got its holy city in that city. Drop some great merchants or prophets in the city, add some buildings like market, bank, wall street and your done.
That one city is keeping my empire running
Wow, so many answers. Thanks!
Well I don't ever experience unhappiness problem. I check the growth of cities with Don't grow option and build many city improvements (temples, aquadacts (spelling?), theaters, etc.). So unhappiness is not an issue. But I like to keep my science at 80% spending. By the middle of the game I have to lower it to 70% or even 60%mad, and I don't like it! I am a warrior and love fighting with big armies, so perhaps this is my source of high maintenance. But I noticed that AI civilizations who surpass me in score and technologies, always use just cottages/towns for their economy. When I build improvements around my cities, there are always many options. Some tiles have one hammer and two breads, or two hammers and no breads. In this case, which improvent would you build in such tiles? I usually leave 3 or 4 farms for each city after they pass size 10. The rest I turn either into cottages or forges (if not many hills/mounts available in the area). But when my cities reach size 15 - 16, my cities become Stagnant. That forces me to turn villages into farms, so that they keep growing. But this starts dropping my income. Stinking AI seems to be fine. They grow their cities well enough with just towns and mines. They have big cities, lots of cash and big armies. So there, I KNOW that I am managing something wrong!
Well I don't ever experience unhappiness problem. I check the growth of cities with Don't grow option and build many city improvements (temples, aquadacts (spelling?), theaters, etc.). So unhappiness is not an issue. But I like to keep my science at 80% spending. By the middle of the game I have to lower it to 70% or even 60%
mad, and I don't like it! I am a warrior and love fighting with big armies, so perhaps this is my source of high maintenance. But I noticed that AI civilizations who surpass me in score and technologies, always use just cottages/towns for their economy. When I build improvements around my cities, there are always many options. Some tiles have one hammer and two breads, or two hammers and no breads. In this case, which improvent would you build in such tiles? I usually leave 3 or 4 farms for each city after they pass size 10. The rest I turn either into cottages or forges (if not many hills/mounts available in the area). But when my cities reach size 15 - 16, my cities become Stagnant. That forces me to turn villages into farms, so that they keep growing. But this starts dropping my income. Stinking AI seems to be fine. They grow their cities well enough with just towns and mines. They have big cities, lots of cash and big armies. So there, I KNOW that I am managing something wrong!Littlelisa
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2005
- Messages
- 145
Always depends what else there is
Grass lands, the 2
one, few farms always good. Towns always usefull.
Later on Workshops rule, once you have a few techs, the +4
is great, builld them on plains and it a 5 hammer spot.
Though you can build workshops on grasslands for 4x
I used to never build windmills, but they great on grassland hills next to rivers. More so if you got financial civ, then its 3 commerce not 2.
Try to plan ahead a little as well, remember watermills, windmills and workshops look crappy compared to farms, mines and cottages early on. But a few techs/civics and they great.
Grass lands, the 2
one, few farms always good. Towns always usefull.Later on Workshops rule, once you have a few techs, the +4
is great, builld them on plains and it a 5 hammer spot.Though you can build workshops on grasslands for
4x I used to never build windmills, but they great on grassland hills next to rivers. More so if you got financial civ, then its 3 commerce not 2.
Try to plan ahead a little as well, remember watermills, windmills and workshops look crappy compared to farms, mines and cottages early on. But a few techs/civics and they great.
Murky
Deity
Wow, so many answers. Thanks!
Well I don't ever experience unhappiness problem. I check the growth of cities with Don't grow option and build many city improvements (temples, aquadacts (spelling?), theaters, etc.). So unhappiness is not an issue. But I like to keep my science at 80% spending. By the middle of the game I have to lower it to 70% or even 60%
You might get something out of a few articles in the war academy. There's a basic strategy guide and there's the city specialization guide too.
It also depends on which version you are playing. I find that vanilla is the easiest to learn and play. Warlords is good if you like multi-player. BTS has it's merits but it's probably the most complex of the three.
I think the reason you are falling behind is probably lack of good early expansion and your level of aggression. If you're always building to deal with happiness that takes time away from troop builds.
One thing that I've found that is kind of counterintuitive:
If you have to turn down the research slider, it's time to expand. Settle a couple more cities close to your borders (or take them in war) and set them up to generate some positive cashflow (courthouse, etc). Your research should still go up if it's in a decent location.
If you can't maintain your research rate and the standing army that you need at the same time, it means your empire is too small. Sad but true. It's better to lower the slider yourself before you HAVE to, and go off warmongering than wait until the last minute to lower it.
edit: As for building happiness - well, until I get grocer, happiness is not my problem usually.
If you have to turn down the research slider, it's time to expand. Settle a couple more cities close to your borders (or take them in war) and set them up to generate some positive cashflow (courthouse, etc). Your research should still go up if it's in a decent location.
If you can't maintain your research rate and the standing army that you need at the same time, it means your empire is too small. Sad but true. It's better to lower the slider yourself before you HAVE to, and go off warmongering than wait until the last minute to lower it.
edit: As for building happiness - well, until I get grocer, happiness is not my problem usually.
Silence101
King
If you're not having an issue with happiness, it sounds like you're controling growth well. I'm not anti-farm building as it may have sounded in my last post - A better way to word it may have been that I think people tend to leave the plots that are being worked by citizens up to the computer, which tends to prioritize city growth even at the expense of unhappiness. Having a ton of farms can compound the problem - but if you're controling growth, having more farms than you need can be a good way to get your city population up quickly. I still am somewhat partial to the good ole' CE, however - lots of cottages.
in my opinion your first four citizens should be be working (and workers improving) tiles in this order:
One 3+ food tile (Farm or Pasture or fishing)
One 3+ Prod Tile (Mine, pasture, etc..)
Two grassland or floodplain cottages
You need to get a cottages ASAP as your third and fourth tiles in any city (IMO) because they grow so slowly and you need your all your cottages to be villages by the start of mid-game! The only way to do that is to build them early by making them the base of every city. Once you need to decide where to put the 5th citizen, you need to think about the citie's specializtion.
Then you specialize your cities into three categories,
great people (usually your capital or captured capital)
Production City (usually one by a river with hills)
Commerce City coastal or One that's not good for either of the others.
All city types will need at least 2 food tiles (3+) to support 2-3 excess food per turn and one or maybe two good production (3+) squares. After that you only build what helps your specializtaion.
If you're on a commerce city and you have 2-3 surplus food and free grasslands you should be building a cottage every single time and specialists if you reach your health/happiness limit. I would not build farms on plains with a city like this unless they are river squares or for spreading irrigation, since they won't get you gold or GP. Once windmills are available get rid of your 1-2 mines and work those windmills!
A production city should get any combination that maximizes the most hammers within your health limit (easy to control your pop, just work more mines!) Farms on Plains OK, no cottages in your prod city! Every possible tile should be prod or food oriented (to keep that 2 surplus growth rate). Once you need the tile those cottages are on, dump them! They were good while they lasted! (Too bad you can't pillage your own towns!)
For GP cities, it should be farms and mines (using the governor to switch between the two for wonder building. You have fun if you don't sweat the decisions too much, and this is a system that will work for most people.
One 3+ food tile (Farm or Pasture or fishing)
One 3+ Prod Tile (Mine, pasture, etc..)
Two grassland or floodplain cottages
You need to get a cottages ASAP as your third and fourth tiles in any city (IMO) because they grow so slowly and you need your all your cottages to be villages by the start of mid-game! The only way to do that is to build them early by making them the base of every city. Once you need to decide where to put the 5th citizen, you need to think about the citie's specializtion.
Then you specialize your cities into three categories,
great people (usually your capital or captured capital)
Production City (usually one by a river with hills)
Commerce City coastal or One that's not good for either of the others.
All city types will need at least 2 food tiles (3+) to support 2-3 excess food per turn and one or maybe two good production (3+) squares. After that you only build what helps your specializtaion.
If you're on a commerce city and you have 2-3 surplus food and free grasslands you should be building a cottage every single time and specialists if you reach your health/happiness limit. I would not build farms on plains with a city like this unless they are river squares or for spreading irrigation, since they won't get you gold or GP. Once windmills are available get rid of your 1-2 mines and work those windmills!
A production city should get any combination that maximizes the most hammers within your health limit (easy to control your pop, just work more mines!) Farms on Plains OK, no cottages in your prod city! Every possible tile should be prod or food oriented (to keep that 2 surplus growth rate). Once you need the tile those cottages are on, dump them! They were good while they lasted! (Too bad you can't pillage your own towns!)
For GP cities, it should be farms and mines (using the governor to switch between the two for wonder building. You have fun if you don't sweat the decisions too much, and this is a system that will work for most people.
